| ▲ | mmoll 12 hours ago |
| If this weren’t Deutsche Bahn, I’d say it’s a cyber attack. Given that this is Deutsche Bahn, though, it may just as well be a maintenance issue. |
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| ▲ | fnordian_slip 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| That's what happens when you ignore critical infrastructure for three decades. Of course, if the government were to correct the mistakes of the past, it would get worse for another decade. The necessary repairs would cause a lot more delays, and voters would then say "Were giving them so much extra money, and it gets worse? Unacceptable!". So I fear we'll continue to have these problems forever. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > when you ignore critical infrastructure for three decades To be fair, Deutsche Bahn is currently spending “€107bn between 2025 and 2029” on infrastructure upgrades [1]. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/db75e347-b13b-4753-8130-6301bb55c... | | |
| ▲ | egorfine 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Out of which €106bn are to be spent on regulations and environmental assessments. | |
| ▲ | wil421 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | NYC is spending around $68 billion to modernize their subway. Not sure what that’s says about Deutsche Bahn vs NYC/MTA but I’m sure both are not upgrading that much. Not sure what I was expecting quality wise in Germany when I rode the DB rail between states and the Munich subway but it wasn’t much different than the US, except it much more expansive. Nothing fancy and it was late but I’d rather not pay for fancy here or there. Just make it work. | |
| ▲ | wolfi1 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | that could have been a lot cheaper of they would have spent in the past (their spending seems to have been very low) | |
| ▲ | okanat 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They need to spend at least 3x that and they need to bring redundant workforce to fix Germany. It is completely broken now. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > They need to spend at least 3x that According to whom? | | |
| ▲ | probably_wrong 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Here's an article (in German) from last year where Richard Lutz, boss at the time of Deutsche Bahn, says they needed at least twice as much as what they were getting: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/mobilitaet/trotz-sond... And here's an article (also in German) from this year about how the money that's been promised is not being delivered, leading to the cancelation of 90 projects. https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/es-fehlt-das-geld-mehr-a... I also remember an article about how part of the train budget was being redistributed to fix highways, but I can't find it right now. So I agree with the parent comment: the current investment is not enough and what little they have is constantly being diverted. | |
| ▲ | okanat 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Look at how much Switzerland spends per capita vs Germany. €477 vs €115. And Swiss kept their infrastructure well unlike Germans. source: https://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/themen/infrastruktur/inve... | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Look at how much Switzerland spends per capita vs Germany. €477 vs €115 Your chart shows close to €200 spent by Deutschland per capita in 2024, before the abovementioned spending splurge (about €30/person/year). (The numbers 477 and 115 never appear in your source.) €230 in Berlin purchases about as much as €371 of CHF in Zürich [1]. So no, I’m not seeing evidence Germany needs to further 3x capital expenditure to unfuck its system, and that’s before observing it spends more than Italy per capita, and Italy’s intercity rail is fantastic. [1] https://www.paritydeals.com/ppp-calculator/switzerland-vs-ge... | | |
| ▲ | penteract 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | The number €115 is in the second chart as the per capita German expenditure on rail infrastructure in 2023. I don't see €477, but it's pretty close to the €480 figure for Switzerland in 2024. My guess is they saw an old version of the page when the first chart had numbers for 2023 and have kept using it without noticing the update. |
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| ▲ | zelphirkalt 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Though I think they are not spending it sustainably. There is one train line and one lightrail line between my city and the next big city. They want to do things to the train line, blocking it for half a friggin year, and they make that announcement as if they do not give a damn about anyone, who relies on that line. Everyone will have to squeeze into the lightrail trains, which take longer. Often whole carriages are mephitic and unusable, when certain people have made them their temporary homes. If things were done with an eye to the future, we would see things like extra lines, so that when things need to be renewed/maintained train service is not completely and utterly fucked for half a year for thousands of people, who want or need to take the train for daily commute. It is in my eyes utterly ridiculous, that we rely on a single track and are fucked, when literally anything at all needs to be done. Instant 100% train service disruption. This is Deutsche Bahn reliability. Of course that would cost more ... It's cost accumulated by decades of neglect, and now they don't want to spend that money on the citizen, but rather pay biiiig juicy bonuses for management levels at Deutsche Bahn. Predatory capitalism at its best. And that's not all. Their software and app sucks ass too. |
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| ▲ | arjie 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's interesting how software systems and these large systems always have the same problem. Software failures are described by the engineers as being caused by "not enough maintenance and now the code needs to be refactored" and these real world systems are always caused by "not enough funding for preventative maintenance". It's a curious case that these issues are rarely caused by actions in the present but primarily by actions (and often other actors) in the past. Presumably, we too shall be the villains to the people of 2050 as they shall, in turn, be the morons who built this stupid fucking system in this dumbass way instead of just designing it correctly and keeping it up to date over the years to the people of 2080. One thing I must consider doing is calling any fellow coworker an idiot pre-emptively since that way it's like I'm living 25 years in the future. |
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| ▲ | eqvinox 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For context, in case people are less familiar with German politics: DB is in a misbegotten state of privatization, started in the 90ies. The government spun it out into a private company but still owns 100% of it. They were trying to pump it up so they could sell it for good money. They did that by skimping on everything including maintenance, to try and make the numbers look good. Except they never got to whatever magic numbers they wanted before the maintenance debt came rearing its ugly head and now everything is royally screwed. And because it's a private company, there's a whole bunch of barriers limiting how much they can even subsidize the thing at this point. Not sure if this is better or worse than the UK's Network Rail story, but at the end of the day the only thing that will solve this is if they re-nationalize the tracks & infrastructure. What kind of an idiot thought including that in the privatization is a good idea is beyond me. It's not like you can build a 2nd railway network in order to get free market & competition. (For comparison, imagine privatizing the entire road network, village street to Autobahn.) |
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| ▲ | blablabla123 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I was once on a job interview there, in the Train/Station Wifi branch, mostly web programming related though IIRC. It wasn't so much of a quiz format but the interviewers wanted to know what I worked on before, why I wanted to change etc. What really stuck with me was how the department CTO insisted how superior and privacy conforming their logging system is. Not saving anything, not even for a micro second. I didn't dare to ask how they debugged anything. But in the end I was rejected and the reason was: more questions than answers. | | | |
| ▲ | ahartmetz 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The one good thing is that they failed to take it private. Imagine how bad it would be with the current maintenance backlog and no public funding. | | |
| ▲ | tonyedgecombe an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Rail journeys in the UK doubled after privatisation. The service was dire under public ownership because it never got enough investment. | |
| ▲ | robocat 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The New Zealand government sold their rail system, then Toll didn't make a success of it, so the government bought it back at a massive loss. Now rail is just a nightmare moneypit. But older voters love rail "it's efficient" so the government panders to them and wastes more expenditure on it. Edit: Currently for every $1.50 tax income from road user taxes and petroleum taxes: $1 is spent on roads, and 50 cents is spent on "rail". Crap. Rail is paid for by cars but is mostly waste. | | |
| ▲ | Gud 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don’t know much about New Zealand but I do know that a functioning rail network is amazing(I live in Switzerland and frequently travel by public transport). My native Sweden had an amazing rail network as well, we even made our own locomotives, but unfortunately it has also been neglected, though not as bad as in Germany. Don’t diss rail, it can be great. | | |
| ▲ | robocat 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Rail can also be awful. New Zealand is largely coastal so ships mostly beat rail. The 3 largest cities have their own ports. Cook Straight separates the South Island from the North Island, which complicates rail down South (apart from the Kaikoura Earthquake totally stuffing it). We don't do many bulk goods (unlike Australia which loves mining). NZ overall has much less dense population - e.g. Auckland has insanely more urban sprawl than Zurich. Sweeping statements about rail are a problem here (especially if incorrectly comparing against other populous or landlocked countries), and the biased love of rail makes for wasteful expenditure. | | |
| ▲ | eqvinox 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Auckland has insanely more urban sprawl than Zurich. Auckland: ca. 1000 people/km² in 30km radius Zürich: ca. 800 people/km² in 30km radius People severely underestimate how sprawly Zürich is. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Not sure if this is better or worse than the UK's Network Rail story “About 72 per cent of Deutsche Bahn’s intercity trains arrived within 10 minutes of their scheduled arrival time in the year to January 2025, compared with 78 per cent of British long-distance trains, according to the FT analysis. Any interaction with the German rail network is also one of the biggest factors affecting the punctuality of long-distance rail travel in Central Europe” [1]. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/d3b6e6b5-eddb-4230-b866-932d284ce... | | |
| ▲ | eqvinox 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The UK's railway network was only privately owned from 1994 to 2002 though, everything after that is already under the umbrella of re-nationalisation, which didn't go super well either (my knowledge about that is rather vague). Not sure how useful 2025 numbers are in this context. [ed.: to be clear - AFAIK they are in the same state currently, private company but 100% government owned. But there's a huge distinction in that the UK has made the decision to move back in the direction of nationalisation. In Germany, some people still pretend this is somehow fine and just needs to get cleaned up before the privatization can continue.] | |
| ▲ | LearnYouALisp 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The secret, as told in some other threads (elsewhere), is that "If the service is canceled, it can't have been late!" So trains that are over ~30 minutes late can be canceled. | |
| ▲ | cyberax 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Heh. Ukraine is doing better than that _during_ _the_ _war_: https://en.cfts.org.ua/news/ukrzaliznytsia_boasts_97_train_d... | | |
| ▲ | retired an hour ago | parent [-] | | Germany also was very punctual with their trains during the war. |
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| ▲ | martinald 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well, the EU insists that track & train operations are separate. (ironically the UK _is_ combining passenger operations and track somewhat back together, which is only possible because of brexit). The bigger issue tbh is the enormous cost inflation in civil engineering in general. This seems to be a problem everywhere. There's no doubt some of this is caused by material cost increases, labour shortages etc, but I'd say the huge amounts of regulation added over the years is really a core driver of this. | | |
| ▲ | bertylicious 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | No. They cut on maintenance to make line go up. And then they deconstructed existing switches, signal boxes, train lines, and train stations to cut costs even more. This is not an EU problem or a regulations problem or labour cost problem. These are the fruits of privatisation and capitalism. |
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| ▲ | lmm 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Not sure if this is better or worse than the UK's Network Rail story, but at the end of the day the only thing that will solve this is if they re-nationalize the tracks & infrastructure. What kind of an idiot thought including that in the privatization is a good idea is beyond me. It's not like you can build a 2nd railway network in order to get free market & competition. (For comparison, imagine privatizing the entire road network, village street to Autobahn.) If you privatize the infrastructure and trains together you can at least compare one region against another, even if they're not directly competing. Trying to operate the trains separately from the tracks was a disaster in the UK and lead pretty directly to two mass casualty incidents. | | |
| ▲ | hylaride 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Governments can be just as bad at infrastructure investments. That being said, I get the sense it's a German cultural problem. I used to travel to Germany quite frequently and was always surprised at the poor quality of much of the infrastructure, including private. The cell phone networks and internet speeds were all awful. As recently as 6 years ago my phone dropped to edge as soon as I left the city and within the major cities I had terrible performance. I'm not kidding when I say that I often had near dialup speeds, despite having full LTE bars. Maybe this has improved since. As for rail, for Europe, the rail lines should probably be run as a cooperative with the rail companies paying dues. | | |
| ▲ | robtro 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not a purely cultural problem but mostly a political problem. Germany sold out (a lot of it under the table and really fast without proper oversight) all of the good working stuff in the 90s to investors and the state kept all the bad stuff so there's no money or will to invest. All of your examples were state owned and operating nicely in the 80s. And then the CDU basically froze all progress for years under the umbrella of saving costs (instead of taxing the rich and companies and opening a lot of loopholes to transfer assets out of the country) So all of the infrastructure in all aspects is on its last legs and somehow now you can't build stuff anymore anywhere apparently because everything takes forever in the western world especially in Germany where maddening Bureaucracy is apparently a good thing. |
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| ▲ | iknowstuff 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What is the incentive for politicians to sell a publicly owned company for a lot of money? How would they personally benefit from a high price? I can only think of incentives to sell it for as little as possible to a most favored investor/buddy. | | |
| ▲ | eska 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Exit strategy for after their political career. Compare with Gerhard Schröder |
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| ▲ | dfltr 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For DB, this type of outage is referred to as "Tuesday". |
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| ▲ | hobofan 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Probably someone forgot to renew the TLS certificate. |
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| ▲ | gpvos 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You may not be far off. Word is that it's a failed software update. | |
| ▲ | gruselhaus 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My 100 bucks are on an expired certificate in the trust chain. the same kind of issue that took down almost all Verifone payment terminals in Germany in 2022. |
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| ▲ | uxhacker 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What is surprising is that GSM-R is 2g. Does not 2g have many security issues? |
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| ▲ | ed_balls 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Same thing happened in Poland and it was confirmed that Russians did it. |
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| ▲ | jasonvorhe 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Was waiting for someone to bring this up. X is already full of similar nonsense. As if DB didn't have a track record of utterly broken infrastructure. For decades. I guess by this logic we could also claim that "there Germans caused the power outage in Berlin last winter" because the perpetrators were likely German political activists. | |
| ▲ | thih9 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you have a link? Was it similar to what we’re seeing now (nationwide, radio related)? | | | |
| ▲ | justsomehnguy 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > it was confirmed that Russians did it. >> It’s believed the perpetrators of the attack were supporters of the Russian war effort, as the stop signals were also joined by broadcasts of the Russian national anthem and a speech from Russian President Vladimir Putin. The attacks have some significance to the invasion of Ukraine, as Poland has been a hub for crucial weapons deliveries supporting the defence of Ukraine. Yes, yes, it's a code of honour not to use the someone' else national anthem, sure. Especially if you need to bolster the population support for some ongoing cause. |
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| ▲ | shmeeed 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Given the current heat wave, it might be a case of "trains not running because it's too hot"?
As opposed to, you know, "trains not running because it's too cold", e.g. because of icing on the overhead lines. |
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| ▲ | polyomino 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| These are effective targets for hybrid warfare for that very reason, plausible deniability |
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| ▲ | warumdarum 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Could also be a russian firembomber gig worker getting brushed under mnt carpet of societal stability. Anything to keep this powderkeg of parallel societies going .. |
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| ▲ | Bluebirt 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You mean neglect? |
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| ▲ | wolfi1 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| and/or incompetence |
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| ▲ | aaron695 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [dead] |
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| ▲ | bflesch 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It's russian hybrid warfare against Germany. Since invasion of Ukraine there have been numerous cable cuttings on train tracks, several train derailments, some fires. It has become so bad that police helicopters are regularly patrolling train routes at night to spot sabotage as early as possible. People complain about the flight noise at night which was not there before. So as a person working in cyber security, I'd put this into the sabotage bucket. |
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