> But then he made a tweet that basically just says "I suggested this, some people like it, some hate it". That's super against the rules, because it attracts people to the proposal who otherwise wouldn't have seen it.

How would this in any way be against the rules? Wouldn'tan open and democratic process like wikipedia want as many eyes as possible on a vote or rule change?

That sounds completely backwards from the open and free spirit of wikipedia. If even wikipedia has gone full mob rule then hwo do any projects stay open and free to everyone?

▲ ameliaquining 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Consensus-based decision making doesn't work if people can bring in their existing audience from elsewhere to overwhelm the discussion. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Canvassing.

▲ john_strinlai 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>How would this in any way be against the rules? Wouldn'tan open and democratic process like wikipedia want as many eyes as possible on a vote or rule change?

if you bring in a bunch of non-wikipedia people (i.e. people who haven't previously cared about or participated in wikipedia discussions at all), all from 1 person's twitter following, you aren't getting "open and free spirit"-ed discussion. you are getting a bunch of larry followers who want larry to "win"

▲ bayindirh 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

(Note: This is what I got from the Talk page about the ban)

The core idea is, Wikipedia has internal mechanisms to make these kinds of notifications, and making these decisions needs some knowledge and experience about how Wikipedia works.

Recruiting inexperienced people to bias decisions which requires knowledge is effectively converting that proposal to a blunt instrument and trying to force your way in (aka bludgeon).

When the mechanisms in place and requirement of experience (i.e. competence), whistling the town square and calling people to force a gate is textbook brigading, and brigading is forbidden everywhere (maybe except 4chan/8chan).

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dotancohen 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Recruiting inexperienced people to bias decisions which requires knowledge is effectively converting that proposal to a blunt instrument and trying to force your way in (aka bludgeon).

I agree with your premise and with your conclusion. That said, campaigning in a democracy is exactly recruiting inexperienced people to bias decisions which requires knowledge. Any support of that viewpoint would effectively ban political campaigning.

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bayindirh 2 days ago | parent [-]

That's not my premise, and not my conclusion. This is a summary of what the admins talk on that discussion page. So I'm just a messenger summarizing things.

Moreover, Wikipedia is not a democracy [0]. It's a consensus based system. So, as they say, votes coming from outside doesn't count, and that's fine by me.

Last but not the least, this is a kind of decision on the level of law-making for the Wikipedia. People elect politicians, but don't write the laws themselves. Criticizing Wikipedia for not allowing "ordinary citizens" to write the laws is a bit stretch while giving democracy as an example to aspire to doesn't make sense, because even a democracy doesn't work the way you want to portray here.

Anyway, Wikipedia is not a democracy to begin with, so that's moot in a sense.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_no...

	▲	MichaelZuo a day ago \| parent [-]
		It clearly cannot be consensus based? As several users mentioned, “The Unblockables” are notorious, as only one admin willing to unblock them is sufficienf. Even against the wishes of another admin and many users.

▲ WarmWash 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

While I agree, the internet has also long suffered from brigading (for better or worse) because the barrier-to-action is virtually zero.

▲ stonogo 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would describe Wikipedia's process as democratic but not necessarily open. And it's pretty hypocritical to describe how they operate as 'mob rule' while complaining that rabble-rousing on other platforms should be allowed. Which is it? Should Sanger be allowed to raise a mob to win a policy vote, or should Wikipedia forbid external vote-whipping?

I stopped engaging with Wikipedia because my experience of their administration is that it's deeply toxic. This specific instance doesn't seem too out-of-hand to me, since the rules are clear in this instance. It's where there are grey areas that their behavior starts to get unhinged.

▲ lanyard-textile 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Remember that the editors of wikipedia do not owe us anything. Time is a gift, and they give theirs to us in great abundance.

It's perfectly acceptable for them to charter their own rules and keep these kinds of matters internal until they agree it's best, for their goals, to involve the public.

Frankly, they strive to be some of the greatest practitioners on neutrality. This is not the kind of organization that needs the kind of public correction you are wondering about.

And if it was, I think we can all understand why modern day Twitter is the wrong place to exclusively inspire that discussion.

▲ altilunium 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The Wikipedia community proudly states that they're not a democracy [1]. I don't even know how that works. People simply think their opinion is the best one while hiding behind statements like, "This is THE consensus, you can't do anything about it. Oh, Wikipedia IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, so your pathetic voting attempt has literally no power here."

[1] : https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:IS_NOT_A_DEMOCRACY...

▲ Sweepi 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Why not quote the rule, if it is so offending?:

  Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary (though not exclusive) means of decision making and conflict resolution is editing and discussion leading to consensus—not voting. (Voting is used for certain matters such as electing the Arbitration Committee.) Straw polls are sometimes used to test for consensus, but polls or surveys can impede, rather than foster, discussion and should be used with caution.

  Off-site petitions and votes have no weight in the formation of consensus on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_no...

	▲	JdeBP 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Fun fact: Sanger wrote the original version of that rule, and its change over the years has reflected a shift from people coming to Wikipedia in the very early years thinking that they could just do whatever the Hell they wanted, to in later years people coming to Wikipedia thinking that it is run like a legislature. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/423054

▲ Kim_Bruning a day ago | parent | prev [-]

My personal read is this:

A democracy can vote that pi=4.

This is not a very useful property for an encyclopedia, so you're going to need a different system for determining outcomes.

Preferably you need a method that is somehow still somewhat fair. And that's how we get to the concept of rough consensus. It's absolutely not perfect, and it's not meant to be, because nothing is. Improvements welcome.