| ▲ | cognitiveinline 2 days ago |
| Maybe to spark curious conversation, when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these? It does seem like UN is unable to really make a dent here. |
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| ▲ | saturn8601 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| We kinda went through this with South Africa. The only thing saving Israel is the US protection and the nukes. US protection can change. Nukes are harder. South Africa successfully utilized "strategic ambiguity". They never explicitly acknowledged they had the weapons, while making sure world leaders knew they were a credible threat. during South Africa's border wars (specifically against the Cubans in Angola), there were internal discussions about deploying tactical nuclear weapons. Because world leaders viewed that threat as entirely credible, it gave South Africa massive leverage. Feels like world leaders view modern Israeli threats through the exact same lens and i'd agree given recent covert operations like the beeper bombings hence this UN posture. Could we replicate the SA situation? probably not but maybe partially? When the Soviet Union collapsed and the Cold War ended, South Africa’s strategic leverage evaporated overnight. The US and UK no longer had a reason to shield them from crippling global economic sanctions. Feels like we are watching this in real time with Israel post Iran war. If the US entirely removed its diplomatic shield and allowed full global economic isolation to set in, the economic cost of maintaining a pariah state might eventually outweigh the perceived security benefit of the weapons. ('might' doing a lot of heavy lifting there) Also SA was also motivated by fear of the nukes getting in the hands of the incoming leftist government, Israel does not have that fear. |
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| ▲ | taffydavid a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal on earth, and we have no issue sanctioning them excessively. | |
| ▲ | xg15 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not sure if it used to be the case with South Africa too, but I'm baffled how much ideological support Israel still has, in various population groups. There are at least two religious groups who seem to view it as integral part of a divine plan that trumps all other considerations. ("mainstream" Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians) Then there various secular narratives around the Jewish homeland, the rebirth (and Germany's redemption) after the Holocaust etc. For western politicians, it seems far easier to chime in to the dehumanization of Palestinians and either paint the daily suffering there as "tragic but necessary", make fun of it or dismiss it completely - than to object to those stories. This seems to work on a different layer than geopolitics, so I have doubts that a shift in geopolitics alone would change this. (I may be wrong) Though maybe the changed perception of Israel after the Gaza war might change it. | | |
| ▲ | JKCalhoun 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Just wanted to recommend the film, Ajami (2009) [1] that touches on the rather hair-trigger issues in the region. Pretty intense film that does, I think, a good job of showing all sides. [1] https://youtu.be/9VFRMkUlf9g | |
| ▲ | the_origami_fox 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | * * * | | |
| ▲ | xg15 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, and that seems to be the rationale of western politicians as well, essentially, "we have to protect Israel to protect the Jewish people, without it, the Holocaust would risk repeating" That makes sense as a "subjective experience" (if there is something like the subjective experience of a people), but it fails the reality check for me. Yes, Israel is the center of Jewish life today (New York coming next apparently), but I can't really believe that it genuinely is the safest place for Jews in the world today - not after the last years. Jews in the US or Europe were not at risk of being murdered by Hamas, hit by a missile from Iran or get conscripted in a war. Jews in Israel were. > Most want peace but believe their Arab enemies do not. Well, everyone wants peace in the "I won" sense. I don't see that most Israeli Jews want peace in the sense of living together peacefully with their neighbors. (Neither do their neighbors, true - which is why I fault Israelis less here than the western allies who should apply force to both sides to deescalate and reconcile if they really wanted to end the conflict, but who instead only apply pressure to one side and unquestionably support the other side) | | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | throw310822 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Neither do their neighbors, true Their neighbours don't really have an option though. Stopping all resistance will not stop the settlers from harassing and chasing away the natives, and it will not force Israel to respect any border (which they took care of not even declaring). If anything, Palestinian resistance is functional to the progress of the occupation, so, if things get too quiet, a couple of killings or demolished homes keep the situation dynamic enough. Unless you're counting on the moral authority of the Western nations that stayed silent or even financed and armed Israel while it was starving a population under blockade and bombings, murdering tens of thousands of civilians, killing hundreds of journalists, bombing hospitals and universities. Maybe they would say something if Israel killed and conquered a population that absolutely refuses to react. What do you think? | |
| ▲ | hknceykbx 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Israel has conscription laws that require all Jews participate in the IDF. It's one of the only places on Earth where a pacifist Jew would be forcibly made to participate in lethal conflict. There are thousands of other, safer places that a Jew (or anyone, for that matter) could choose to live. As evidenced by the lack of Iron Dome in New Jersey. |
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| ▲ | the_origami_fox a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | tomhow 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Well I tried but you are extremely ignorant, and my comment got flagged anyway. Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | |
| ▲ | xg15 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > There are hardly any Jews in Europe after the Holocaust. They're a rounding error. The communities are small and vulnerable. The largest community in France is under strain with antisemitism and is moving to Israel. The 2nd largest in the UK is not far behind. This honestly makes no sense for me. I live in Europe (Germany) and the discussion about antisemitism and Jewish life is front-and-center here. There are also several synagogues in my city. No one, not even the pro-Palestinian protesters wants them to go away - on the contrary, most protesters (from the left!) go out of their way to stress that their protest against the state of Israel is not hate against the Jewish people. In fact, lots of protesters are Jews themselves. Who keeps conflating the two things and blurring the boundaries in public discussion are pro-Israel orgs. Unfortunately, you're right that real antisemitism is rising. However all European states are taking a stance against that. > There have been repeated attempts at peace... You forgot the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative. | | |
| ▲ | the_origami_fox a day ago | parent [-] | | There are ~100,000 German Jews, from a pre-WW2 population of 560,000 in a modern population of 83.6 million, 0.1%. Yes, did forget that one. Reinstatement of the prohibition to Judaism's holy sites, expulsion of hundred thousands of Israelis from the West Bank, and unlimited Arab immigration to the Jewish state. But it was a peace plan. Edit: I'm still in shock you argued that 100,000 people in a population of 83.6 million is a lot - front and centre - but hand waved the forced relocation 500,000 people in a population of 10 million in a much smaller country as just the cost of peace. | | |
| ▲ | xg15 a day ago | parent [-] | | No one in Germany (except neo nazis) would object to more Jews settling here. > but hand waved the forced relocation 500,000 people in a population of 10 million in a much smaller country as just the cost of peace. The West Bank is not part of Israel. And evidently the Israelis expect the same of 7 million Palestinians (if they aren't trying to annihilate them outright - see OP link of this thread). > But it was a peace plan. It still is. It was offered again several times, last time I believe by Qatar during the Gaza war. | | |
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| ▲ | lorecore 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It is also where Jews are most protected. Israel is without a doubt, the most dangerous place for Jews in the world. Not only is the entire country built on ethnically cleansed land (and thus Zionists have the indigenous population correctly trying to get them off the land), Israel has also attacked almost every country in the region and regularly receives missile attacks. |
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| ▲ | throw478322 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You are missing the very massive religious and ideological groups who are on the other side and see in the destruction of Israel a divine plan or a fulfilment of some secular ideal. This blinkered view will reasonably leave you baffled and with a distorted world model, and a perception that people are stupid when they are actually seeing the bigger picture. | | |
| ▲ | xg15 2 days ago | parent [-] | | No question those exist, but this ignores basic human psychology: If my whole family was wiped out in an airstrike, and then I have a whole population saying "yup, that's exactly how things should be!", of course I would start to hate them. | | |
| ▲ | throw478322 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don’t think you understood. You pointed out support from parts of two Abrahamic faiths for Israel, while ignoring the other major Abrahamic faith, whose opposition to Israel is older and in much greater numbers and zealotry than the evangelical one is for Israel, and has existed long before Israel even had an air force. They are not family and often not even the same race. It’s a religious thing, but you only find two of the three religious alignments irrational, when these two are, at least in part, just reacting in response to the other. |
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| ▲ | asdff 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is funny how much hand wringing is done with nuclear weapons. like they are this big line in the sand when really the same result happens with or without them. Gaza looks as wrecked as Hiroshima or Dresden. Doesn't matter it seems in terms of the function. I guess the bigger risk is really the implication vs the action. It is like Kayfabe for the political class. | | |
| ▲ | notnaut 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I know traditional munitions aren’t exactly “clean” but isn’t nuclear fallout still a unique concern? | | |
| ▲ | asdff 2 days ago | parent [-] | | No one in power meaningfully cares about environmental destruction. | | |
| ▲ | Sabinus 2 days ago | parent [-] | | They do meaningfully care about the significant radiation that is likely to drift into their own citizens. Israel is not a large country. Your analysis on nuclear use doesn't consider the lingering poisoning of people and land compared to conventional weapons. It's not Keyfabe. You would vastly prefer being attacked with conventional weapons. | | |
| ▲ | asdff 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I mean they don't care about pollutants currently harming the health of their own citizens not to mention the environmental crisis and climate change making these regions increasingly inhabitable. Why would they care about radiation? It would be easy to sweep under the rug and wash with undercoverage like the climate issues have been. |
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| ▲ | HDThoreaun 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Might really is doing some heavy lifting here. If the UN turns on Israel and they become sanctioned by the west the most likely outcome is that Israel turns to China. China needs stabilizing forces in the Middle East because of their lack of domestic fossil fuels. They also see similarities between the Gaza situation and Taiwan. The Israelis are fiercely aggressive on security issues. They will not give up on that because of sanctions I think. What US backing is really doing is mostly just making it cheaper for Israel to defend itself so that the Israelis feel less pressure to be aggressive with making buffer zones. Without the US funding the iron dome we would see a real genocide in Gaza. |
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| ▲ | ignoramous 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these If recent history is any indicator, UN isn't that structure; probably EU / G7 / BRICS & other such blocs are: ... we construct a new dataset covering all 43 very large mass atrocities perpetrated by governments or non-state actors since 1945 with at least 50,000 civilian fatalities.
This article introduces and summarizes these data, including an inductively generated typology of three major ending types: those in which (i) violence is carried out to its intended conclusion (37%); (ii) the perpetrator is driven out of power militarily (26%); or (iii) the perpetrator shifts to a different strategy no longer involving mass atrocities against civilians (37%).
We find that international actors play a range of important roles in endings, often involving encouragement and support for policy changes that reduce mass killings. Endings could be attributed principally to armed foreign interventions in only four cases, three of which involved regime change. Within the cases we study, no ending was attributable to a neutral peacekeeping mission.
How very massive atrocities end: A dataset and typology (2020), https://doi.org/10.1177/0022343319900912 |
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| ▲ | daft_pink 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The UN is really just meant to prevent World War 3 and nuclear war. It has succeeded in this for the last 70 years. The structure of the UN is basically unanimous consensus between the major world powers with each power getting a veto. There is no unanimous consensus on this issue at all. |
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| ▲ | spwa4 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Did it? Because this was also always the argument for the "League of Nations" that came before it. If you read 1930s newspapers that's what they give as a reason for the organization's existence ... Now after WW2, consensus is that the League of Nations may have outright caused WW2, and certainly contributed more than any other individual factor. The League of Nations was the embodiment of the treaty of Versailles. As if that wasn't bad enough, the League of Nations was also the league of nations that stopped most reactions against Hitler immediately before the war. I'm not even going to bother drawing the obvious parallel with how the UN is treating nuclear powers, and people defending themselves against attacks by a nuclear (or trying-to-be-nuclear) power. | | |
| ▲ | daft_pink 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It did because world war 3 hasn’t happened and it’s been about 80 years vs the short time between world war 2 and world war 1. | | |
| ▲ | spwa4 a day ago | parent [-] | | I'll just ask the forbidden question: and did WW3 not happen because of the UN ... or because of MAD? (VERY importantly, combined with a fundamental agreement on the value of human life, at least to some extent, between the 2 dominant powers Russia and the US and now China) Not saying that a meeting room where nuclear powers have permanent presence isn't useful. But to say it is responsible for peace somehow is just crazy. |
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| ▲ | HeavyStorm 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If the latest Gaza war taught us anything, is that UN is powerless. And, unfortunately, it is the highest entity that could apply leverage here, so... Not much we can do. In the long term I hope other nations realize they are very vulnerable and begin to invest more in defense, but that escalation can have other downsides. |
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| ▲ | Qem 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > highest entity that could apply leverage What is the lowest entity that can apply leverage? Regardless of what US or UN does or doesn't, you can start boycotting today. | | |
| ▲ | throw310822 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Not completely true, if you're in the US there are laws to punish boycott of Israel. | | |
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| ▲ | spwa4 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | ebbi 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | "Every attack has to end with occupation, destruction and expulsion."
- David Ben-Gurion. Pretty sure he died well before Oct 7. | | |
| ▲ | spwa4 2 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | lorecore 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Actually it was the Zionists that worked with the Nazis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement | | |
| ▲ | Sabinus a day ago | parent [-] | | While we're posting Wikipedia links about Nazi collaboration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini | | |
| ▲ | spwa4 a day ago | parent [-] | | I'd like to add, dragging in Hitler because none of WW2 can be explained without him, and the parent poster posted details about the conflict that immediately preceded the independence of the state of Israel. Right before that, WW2 happened and so what happened in the 2 cannot be seen separate from each other. Hence both sides' behavior during WW2 should be seen as part of the context of what David Ben-Gurion was doing, and Palestinians ... chose a side, let's put it that way. | | |
| ▲ | ebbi 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | You purposely trying to claim Hussaini was 'the pope' of Muslims as though he was a central figure of authority that spoke for Muslims/Palestinians just shows how biased you are - not surprising, given your constant bias on this topic on many other posts. A cursory study on Islam will show you that Islam doesn't have a central figure of authority like the Pope. Therefore what Hussaini did, was him as an individual, and not a decision that can be attributed to all Muslims/Palestinians. So the fact remains that Zionists as a group collaborated with the Nazis. Hussainin acted as an individual. |
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| ▲ | runarberg 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This post is genocide apologia disguised as a question of curiosity. It does not belong in a tech forum. |
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| ▲ | tonks a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It has taught us the the UN is completely corrupted by antizionist hate.
The UN Human Rights Council passed 68 resolutions against Israel in its first decade (2006–2016) — more than the other 67 resolutions against the rest of the world combined, and three times more than any other single country. Meanwhile, 48 countries with serious human rights abuses received zero condemnatory resolutions, including China, Russia, Cuba, Yemen, and Zimbabwe. Countries that did receive resolutions included Syria (20), Myanmar (11), North Korea (9), Belarus (6), Iran (6), and Eritrea (5). Contrast these basket case countries like North Korea and Iran with Israel's record of liberal democracy, free elections, an independent judiciary, rule of law, protections for speech, religion, minorities, women, and LGBTQ people. Israel aint perfect but please, even antzionist haters can see how ridiculously corrupted the UN it is by antizionst hate. |
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| ▲ | p-e-w 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What kind of answer are you expecting? The only “structure” that matters is power, and the only power that matters is the power to force and destroy. Everything else is derived from that, not the other way round. |
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| ▲ | xg15 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think this is a good argument why a singular world power is actually a bad thing - because no matter how much it will promote itself as the "good guys" (and of course it will), at the end of the day, it will push through its own interests by that dominance - whereas if power is more evenly distributed, countries might be more willing to agree to common, formalized rules and a "neutral" body to evaluate them. I think the emergence of nation states with democratic institutions and a strong system of law is actually a hopeful precedent here. Somehow we got from a world of fiefdoms and lords that literally stood above the law to states with checks and balances. (Yes, we're sliding back towards the "fiefdoms" situation right now, but we're still far better than things used to be) So I'm gonna be a starry-eyed idealist and keep the hope up that we might archive the same on a global level at some point. |
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| ▲ | mech998877 2 days ago | parent [-] | | History has shown that having a multitude of roughly-equal competing powers results in more per-capita death from war than when there is 1 or two dominant nations. The 1800's and early 1900's were bloody. Post WWII has had less death from war. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Bilateral is stable. Multilateral is not. We have limited evidence nukes change that. Currently, with the implosion of Pax Americana, we’re hearing words a multi-lateral theatre in the Middle East and Asia. Hence the heightened risk of nuclear power in one of those settings. (Europe remains a bilateral theatre.) | |
| ▲ | xg15 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | True, though post-WWII was not a single power either until the 90s. We've had several decades of Cold War in which there were at least two great powers. | |
| ▲ | chistev 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe because of nukes now. |
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| ▲ | Qem 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > when a world power seems to be supportive of actions that an international body considers negative, what structure can help resolve these? Apply the Apartheid South Africa treatament. Gather the larger number possible of complying members, and apply a coordinated boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign to put pressure in the party engaged in genocide, ethnic cleansing or other abhorrent actions. |
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| ▲ | skybrian 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe it would help if other countries focused on the immediate problem: rescuing people from a dangerous situation. They should be volunteering to take refugees. Sadly, it's unlikely because they care more about keeping immigrants out. |
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| ▲ | lorecore 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Unless you're talking about Zionists returning to their homeland, you're advocating for ethnic cleansing. Palestinians should not be refugees from their own land. | | |
| ▲ | skybrian 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | No, I'm not talking about forcing anyone to leave. There are likely people who do want to leave who are trapped there. | |
| ▲ | tonks 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The Jews in Israel are already in their homeland. Is your "solution" to ethnically cleanse Jews from the Middle East? | | |
| ▲ | lorecore 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | I shouldn't even engage with this since you've been spamming the entire thread with pro-Israel hasbara, but Ashkenazis are native to Europe not the Middle East, and yes they should return to their homeland -- mainly Eastern and Central Europe. | | |
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| ▲ | fergie 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Boycott. Divestment. Sanctions. |
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| ▲ | tonks a day ago | parent [-] | | Do you plan to do that to any other Countries in the Middle East?
Saudi Arabia's human rights record all good for you?
Pakistan?
China and the Uyghurs - mass internment camps and sterilisation of female prisoners. They get a complete pass?
Antizionism is Bondi Beach.
Antizionism is a hate movement. | | |
| ▲ | archdang a day ago | parent [-] | | When one is out of real arguments one resorts to mere whataboutism. | | |
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| ▲ | tonks 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | utirrjrk 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Many countries have strict laws how to deal with genocide, genocide support, and genocide deniers! So just enforce local laws, report supporters of genocide to police. |
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| ▲ | HeavyStorm 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This doesn't seem to even relate to the question. How am I suppose to out the Israeli government to my local police? Or the miriad entities that support it? | |
| ▲ | isgb 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Pro-tip (observe what the UK does closely): Don't call it a genocide and then you don't need to do anything about it. | | |
| ▲ | spwa4 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Indeed. It has to be a particular kind of recognized genocide, and then people just don't agree on what is and isn't a genocide. Turkey is the worst offender there, but it's quite a widespread problem. And, of course, the problem is people don't agree. Turkey refuses to accept many of it's actions as genocidal (because that's how Turkey was created: when the last islamic state ("the Ottoman empire") got destroyed by Turks (who at that point were the ottoman army), they massacred a LOT of population groups, famously the Armenians but academics name more than a dozen separate genocides: Greeks, Kurds, Azeri, Jews, ...) Oh and of course they kept doing it. Technically what Turkey did in Cyprus is also a genocide, and they have an active policy of replacing Kurd population groups but that's, if that's even possible, an even worse sore point. The sad fact is that these genocides happened to gain territory. And, most of that territory, go look at Google Maps. This was mostly deep inland Turkey. And ... Turks obviously don't want it. There's no big cities there, and the more east you go, the less little towns, the less people, the less everything (except on the border). After the genocides what was a European landscape, a village every 5km or so is now empty. Hundreds of kilometers of nothing. Names on a map , with nothing or ruins below them. You don't really need a line to find the Armenian or Georgian border: where the farms begin, the rectangular fields, the villages, you've crossed the Turkish border. In other words: what repopulation the Turks did ... is a failure. And what little remains, mostly near the black sea, is losing young people at an astonishing rate. This is huge empty space, mostly ecologically destroyed land, not productive farmland. Not nature preserves. Nothing. Also the reverse also doesn't apply. The UN may have trouble with Israeli actions, but where the UN took control to resolve the situation, where the UN took action, most famously southern Lebanon, it has not just failed but it systematically kept getting worse for 50+ years now. Whereas at least for Israel you can say: look at Tel Aviv. Look at Jerusalem. Look at Haifa. They really built something. Where the UN "helped" ... there's nothing. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Don't call it a genocide and then you don't need to do anything about it Personally speaking, the is-it-a-genocide debate makes me tune out. It’s hyperlegal, clearly a moving target and selectively prosecuted by each side to the point of, often, absurdity. If two people want to debate it, fine, but I have no obligation to pay attention. If we want to talk about harms and harm reduction, that feels more concrete and relatable. |
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| ▲ | jameshilliard 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
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| ▲ | SanjayMehta 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The UN is stuck in 1945. The UNSC needs to throw out the UK, France, and bring in Brazil, India, South Africa and Germany. And this veto nonsense needs to go away. |
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| ▲ | cicko 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | And how do you suggest they do that? | | |
| ▲ | SanjayMehta a day ago | parent [-] | | By defunding the UN until it falls apart and is rebuilt from scratch. Right now it's a dysfunctional joke. As are most "international" bodies created just after 1945. "Rules based order" when it suits you, "preemptive strikes" when it doesn't. | | |
| ▲ | KingMob a day ago | parent [-] | | This is ironic, because the UN itself was already a rebuilt version of the League of Nations. | | |
| ▲ | SanjayMehta 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not ironic, it's just a fact. The only thing which counts is raw power and the means to deliver it. The US just got a lesson in its limits from the Iranian regime. Countries with natural resources need their own defense against thieves like the US and its vassals. Libya, Iraq, Syria. Oil and no nukes. Fat use the UN was for them. (Forget about the UN. Take a home owners' association. In due course a clique will take it over and corrupt it.) | | |
| ▲ | KingMob 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Uhhh, irony and facts are not mutually exclusive categories. And advocating for the dissolution and replacement of the UN due to it being ineffective is deeply ironic, because that's exactly what happened with the League of Nations, which led to the later formation of the UN. You seem to be in an argumentative mood, but nothing I said is disagreeing with you about the ineffectuality of the UN. |
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| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The security council was built around the nuclear powers at the time. I guess there are two ways to look at it: 1: The new nuclear powers should be included, I guess including N Korea, India, and Pakistan. And possibly Israel, if they admit to having them. 2: Rethink the whole thing. Are nukes really as important as everybody thought they were after WWII? If not, what should we look at to decide who to include? | | |
| ▲ | jameshilliard 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The security council was built around the nuclear powers at the time. That's not actually true, the 5 permanent seats on the UNSC were granted in 1945, well before any country aside from the US managed to develop nuclear weapons. Those 5 countries did all eventually develop nuclear weapons and became nuclear weapon states under the NPT but that happened quite a bit later. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Are nukes really as important as everybody thought they were after WWII? Possibly moreso. Nuclear sovereignty is demonstrably above the conventional type. At the end of the day, having a forum where nuclear powers with long-range delivery capability can veto things reduces the risk of them using that capability to veto in the real world. By the range requirement, Tel Aviv and Pyongyang qualify for UNSC inclusion. New Delhi and Islamabad do not—they will mostly just nuke each other. | | |
| ▲ | runarberg 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I haven’t run the stats on this but it seems to me that countries which have nukes are more likely to invade other countries and then use the nukes as shields to prevent retaliation. Out of the 9 current nuclear armed countries 5 have invaded another countries this century, and three of the most prolific invaders this century (Israel, USA, and Russia; each with over 3 invasions this century) are all nuclear armed. Out of the 4 countries which haven‘t invaded another country this century, two (India and Pakistan) regularly engage in border skirmishes and bombing campaigns. This leaves China and North Korea as the only two nuclear armed countries (out of 9) which don‘t regularly engage in foreign wars. By our current experience, the proliferation of nuclear armed states is almost certain to end in a disaster at a previously unseen scale. We should be doing everything in our power to prevent this world of future horrors. | | |
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| ▲ | pydry 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | the vetoes are pretty much the sole differentiator between the UN and the league of nations, which failed. in theory its better if you don't give veto power to great powers because they'll abuse it. in practice it's what keeps the fragile system that prevents WW3 from total collapse, as happened with the league of nations. | |
| ▲ | lovich 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I sort of see your logic other than South Africa. Why would you drop two nuclear powers who have some means of force projection for a middling economy and military? | | |
| ▲ | SanjayMehta a day ago | parent [-] | | British nukes are a joke, they're controlled by the US. Maybe France can stay. If not South Africa, who from Africa? Egypt? Nigeria? The current composition of the UNSC is just ridiculous. | | |
| ▲ | jameshilliard a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > British nukes are a joke, they're controlled by the US. While it maybe be true that some of the nukes in the UK(i.e. US B61 gravity bombs) may be under the control of the US, the UK still maintains full control over their submarine launched nukes AFAIU. | |
| ▲ | lovich a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you trying to be equitable or based on power? If it’s the latter then unfortunately no nation in Africa currently has equivalent power. Australia would be a better option in either case since they are a continent in of themselves and within spitting distance from being a nuclear power after Biden fucked over the French and beat them to a deal for nuclear subs with Australia. And re: Britain’s nuclear power being controlled by the US. That’s just the maintenance. They still have the nukes and could easily turn to France as the refurbisher if the US denies them. Might even work out as a conciliatory point for the return to the EU that Burnham is harking about. |
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