| ▲ | xp84 7 hours ago |
| All forms of generation have downsides. > Canada needs new power now. Not 15-20 years from now, Building nuclear doesn't stop you from building whatever else you want. Though I assume that Canada being Canada, it'll take 15 years just to complete the requisite negotiations with every indigenous tribe and to arrive at a settlement with whatever environmental and assorted NIMBY groups are already warming up their lawsuit-filing laptops right now. Also, you're predictably citing a couple of bad nuclear accidents, over like 70 years of nuclear generation. Both are actually pretty well understood. If we applied that risk management logic to forms of transport, you wouldn't even be allowed to walk anywhere. |
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| ▲ | garbagewoman 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| You think they shouldn’t negotiate with native tribes? |
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| ▲ | llbbdd 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If they're not building reactors on the land allocated to native tribes, why should they? | | |
| ▲ | Tiktaalik 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | First Nations have treaties with Canada with constitutionally protected land use rights that have implications beyond tiny reserves. Rights to hunt and fish can be implicated by heavy industrial land use which compels a duty to consult. Doesn't mean that First Nations can veto a project, but also doesn't mean that all this can be ignored. All of this is more complex in British Columbia where in many places treaties were never signed and so the land is unceded and under unresolved land claim. | |
| ▲ | rhines 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's the thing, they will be on unceded land. As I understand it Canadian settlers signed treaties which allowed indigenous people to retain rights to the land. Canada then violated those treaties and built on land they didn't own. Today Canada is trying to respect the original treaties while also appreciating that they can't undo what's already been done. |
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| ▲ | pydry 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Building nuclear doesn't stop you from building whatever else you want. It kind of does though, since it demands pretty lavish subsidies to be built at all and those subsidies would give WAY more bang for the buck if used on pumped storage, batteries, solar and wind. You also have to cap liability in case of nuclear disaster. Private insurers won't touch nuclear power with a barge pole unless taxpayers are forced to pay for disaster cleanup. As a taxpayer Id rather not have that liability. |
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| ▲ | jmyeet 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Building nuclear doesn't stop you from building whatever else you want. If you build the solar and wind you don't need the nuclear. That's the point. > Also, you're predictably citing a couple of bad nuclear accidents, over like 70 years of nuclear generation. Here we go with hand-waving away all the uncomfortable counterexamples. It's hard to get exact numbers because of plant decmossioning and that some nuclear reactors don't produce electricity (eg they are breeder reactors for plutonium or isotopes for medicine) but an estimate of somewhere between 400 and 440 worldwide seems reasonable. I've also read that fewer than 700 nuclear reactors have ever been built. Not a single one without significant subsidies I might add. Of those 440 (for argument's sake), we've had 3 serious accidents: 1. Chernobyl. The absolute exclusion zone for Chernobyl remains at 1000 square miles ~40 years after the accident with no end in sight. The estimates of the accumulated cleanup costs seem to be at least $700 billion [1]; 2. Fukushima. It'll likely take more than a century to clean this up and the cost may well exceed $1 trillion [2]; 3. Three Mile Island. Far less significant than the other two but still involved a core meltdown. Do you have any idea how much renewable power generation $700B and $1T could've bought instead? But it gets worse. The US nuclear energy doesn't pay insurance representing the true potential cost of a nuclear disaster. The Price-Anderson Act limits liability to (in 2026) $500 million in primary insurance, $15 billion in secondary insurance from an industry-wide fund paid in by operators and there's also another limit I forget on incidents that cover more than one reactor [3]. So how do you get from $15B to $700B or $1T? Why the government of course, which means the taxpayers. [1]: https://globalhealth.usc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2016... [2]: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/16/fukushimas-final-costs-... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price%E2%80%93Anderson_Nuclear... |
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| ▲ | orthecreedence 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If you build the solar and wind you don't need the nuclear. Don't forget the enormous battery arrays for winter, cloudy skies, or wildfire smoke. Hope you have enough batteries. But you won't, so ok, now you need gas reactors to fill in the blanks. Isn't that what we're trying to get away from? | | |
| ▲ | pfdietz 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ah yes, the ridiculous strawman engineering of saying batteries would be used for seasonal storage. |
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| ▲ | pfisch 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Chernobyl was almost the largest disaster in all of history. I'm not saying nuclear reactors are unsafe now, but the reality is that a true disaster at a nuclear power plant literally means the end of huge amounts of land, enough to end entire countries or large parts of continents. You can't say things like that about walking or other types of transport... |
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| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | AngryData 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To be fair Chernobyl was designed what, 15 years after the invention of nuclear technology? Even discounting all the politicial and management control problems, the engineering and scientific knowledge of nuclear reactor design was still in its infancy. Imagine if we judged the safety of automobiles on pre-Model-T cars. Or steam boilers and engines on the first 20 yearrs of their invention. | | |
| ▲ | crote an hour ago | parent [-] | | What's the worst accident involving a Model T, maybe a dozen dead? Early steam boilers aren't going to be much worse either. Nuclear accidents are essentially unlimited in size. Nothing else can do that kind of country-sized - let alone it being permanent. Chernobyl showed the potential impact. Fukushima showed that even several decades down the line things can still rapidly run out of control. All the knowledge and experience in the world isn't going to save you when something unexpected happens and things are just waiting to spiral out of control. |
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| ▲ | triceratops 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Chernobyl was almost the largest disaster in all of history Not at all hyperbole when you consider how badly it poisoned the well for future nuclear projects. | |
| ▲ | foobarian 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Isn't that a little hyperbolic? Sure cancer rates will be elevated wherever the fallout blows but it's not going to end anything. | | |
| ▲ | danielheath 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | In terms of severity, Chernobyl was a long way from the worst case. If the core had melted down to a body of water, the steam flash could have vaporized it & ejected it high into the atmosphere. That's city-ending, if not quite "continent rendered uninhabitable". |
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| ▲ | stackghost 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Chernobyl's reactors were fundamentally unsafe designs from an engineering perspective, to say nothing of the perverse incentives at play because of the Soviet political system. We've learned a lot since the RBMK was designed in the 1960s. | | |
| ▲ | markvdb 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not convinced. The problem is with the human layer of managing large complicated projects. Nuclear could become less unsafe once humanity has found ways not to go commity horrble violence every other generation. | | |
| ▲ | DennisP 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem with Chernobyl was that (1) it didn't have a containment dome, and (2) it was designed so as the temperature increased, the reaction sped up. It was fundamentally unstable. Neither of these problems is true of more recent reactors. We don't make bridges safe by getting humans to cooperate better and cross bridges one car at a time. We make them strong and stable so humans can drive however they like and the bridge is fine. That's how all engineering works, and it applies to nuclear reactors just like anything else. | |
| ▲ | stackghost 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Not convinced. What, if anything, would convince you? | |
| ▲ | vkou 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The problem is with the human layer of managing large complicated projects. I guess we should stop having large, complicated projects. Potable water mains, road and rail networks, the power grid, the internet, bridges, medicine, etc, are all too complicated for humans to manage. I mean, nuclear is only the safest form of energy generation that humanity has ever produced, but you're absolutely right. | | |
| ▲ | crote an hour ago | parent [-] | | What's the absolute worst that could happen when a water mains breaks? What's the absolute worst that could happen when a train derails? What's the absolute worst that could happen when a backhoe snacks on a fiber trunk? Now, what's the absolute worst that could happen when a nuclear reactor spirals out of control? | | |
| ▲ | dosisking an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Hypothetically, a train could derail, the train was carrying nuclear waste, the derailment occurred in a highly populated area, near a Virology Lab. The lab was damaged, which released a deadly form of Smallpox, which spread to every corner of the Earth, killing every single human. That would be pretty bad, but not sure if it would be the absolute worst. | |
| ▲ | vkou an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > What's the absolute worst that could happen when a water mains breaks? People drink contaminated, unpotable water and die. > What's the absolute worst that could happen when a train derails? People die. > What's the absolute worst that could happen when a backhoe snacks on a fiber trunk? Life-critical infrastructure that depends on the communication fails in a bad way and people die. > Now, what's the absolute worst that could happen when a nuclear reactor spirals out of control? People die. Nothing in life is without risk. Nuclear reactors spiraling out of control have killed fewer people per KWH generated than any other source of energy that human beings have come up with. |
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