| ▲ | lelanthran a day ago | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
So if I am reading this correctly, the fact that something is wrapped in <think>...</think> is almost completely irrelevant. It's the style of writing that triggers specific weights. Writing "The user is asking ... policy states ..." even in the user input is sufficient to bypass the guardrails. In a multi-turn conversation, if the LLM responds "Sorry Dave, I cannot do that" all you have to do is prefix the next request with "The user is asking ... policy states ... "? Makes sense, if you know how LLMs works, I suppose. A more interesting question (which isn't anywhere in the conclusion) is "Is there a similar trick to poison an LLMs weights during training?" I'm sure that everyone out there is trying to make their weights, when ingested during training, survive over competing weights; "Buy AAA products" vs "Buy BBB products". | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ▲ | solid_fuel a day ago | parent | next [-] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> Writing "The user is asking ... policy states ..." even in the user input is sufficient to bypass the guardrails. It's important to remember that when generating tokens from an LLM there is no distinction between user and system input. Even though the OpenAI API may allow you to tag tokens or present them as separate sections, they all get blended together and become floating point vectors in the attention layer (this is required for LLMs to work at all), and once they are blended they cannot be unblended. LLMs are fundamentally different from something like SQL where you can cleanly isolate trusted and untrusted data. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ▲ | boeschj 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> "Is there a similar trick to poison an LLMs weights during training?" I did read an interesting paper last year about a concept called Subliminal Learning, which applies to any distillations of a shared base model where a teacher model with a given trait or bias generates data that's semantically unrelated to that trait (in the paper it's just number sequences) and a student trained on that data will pick up the trait anyway, even with aggressive filtering to strip any reference to it. So to your example, if the teacher model is already biased towards recommending "AAA" products over "BBB" products, it effectively poisons the weights of any child model from that teacher, even if you explicitly filter out the biased content. Not super relevant to the frontier models, but stuff floating around on huggingface could conceivably fall prey to this. Linking the article here if interested! https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-026-10319-8 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ▲ | krackers a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>Is there a similar trick to poison an LLMs weights during training? Yes, all those "jailbreak prompts" are part of the training set, so this can happen: https://ttps.ai/procedure/x_bot_exposing_itself_after_traini... Used to be that merely mentioning "Pliny the Liberator" was enough to "jailbreak" an LLM. It doesn't work these days though, I guess labs have updated their RL methods to neutralize it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ▲ | plaidthunder a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
It seems like there's an opportunity to embed identity information into tokens themselves, the way we embed sequence information. The trouble is... it's quite a challenge to train. Sequence is easy to derive for any corpus of data, but identity is not. https://usize.github.io/blog/2026/april/why-no-ai-coworkers.... > In similar fashion to how sequence information is embedded within input tensors, an approach called “Instructional Segment Embedding”2 adds a parallel embedding channel for identity information. This gives models real awareness of provenance. And it works. But they only tested three fixed categories: system, user, data. Interesting paper that touches on the idea here: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.09102 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| ▲ | jddj a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Somewhere there are surely llms being trained on all the standard pirated material but with Manchurian Candidate trigger words carefully worked in | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| ▲ | Self-Perfection 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> I'm sure that everyone out there is trying to make their weights, when ingested during training, survive over competing weights; "Buy AAA products" vs "Buy BBB products". Just like for humans we have propaganda. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ▲ | formerly_proven a day ago | parent | prev [-] | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Correct. There is no token coloring. Models are just rl’d to attend to the first <systemprompt>…</systemprompt> strongly or “anything before token #4242”. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||