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ktm5j 7 hours ago

It's their organization. They are allowed to make decisions about what software their employees use. I'm a die-hard Mozilla fan, but I don't find this unreasonable.

cmeacham98 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The problem is Google appears to label this as a security feature. I'm fine with the feature existing, but it should say something like "require Chrome" or "block Firefox" not "require a secure browser (wink wink we actually mean Chrome)"

insanitybit 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The wording here is bad, but basically CAA supports non browser specific policy and, in some cases, browser specific policy (GSuite offers a "Managed Chrome" policy). Firefox users can leverage much of the non browser specific policy, they obviously can not be a part of the "Managed Chrome" offering.

saghm 5 hours ago | parent [-]

There's no contradiction here; it's totally possible for a company to make a feature configurable so that it doesn't block their competitors but also intentionally design and market it in a way that's misleading in ways that will lead to their competitors getting blocked. When we're talking about a company as large as Google and a product with as much market share as Chrome, I don't think it's that crazy to think that things like this add up to encouraging even more hegemony, and when that happens to align perfectly with the incentives of the company making said product decisions, I also don't think it's crazy to think it's unlikely to be a coincidence.

insanitybit 5 hours ago | parent [-]

If the argument is that Google has built a product that encourages use of Google products, of course. The question is whether that's some sort of trickery or odd or bad. "Google offers Managed Chrome as a service" hardly seems controversial to me.

jchw 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Google offering managed chrome as a service is a completely sensible thing. The problem is that they are nearly a browser monopoly, and making Google Workspace work in such a way with Google Chrome feels to me like anti-competitive practices. If we didn't have one giant megacorp that did both things, it would be different.

Of course, so far the only workable model for web browsers is having a giant megacorp fund their development and maintenance. Which is a huge issue, and we will do basically nothing about it.

(Don't get me wrong. I have high hopes for Ladybird and even Servo, but they may come too late if effectively-proprietary features force most users to stick to Chrome anyways.)

insanitybit 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm not sure what the alternative is. Is there will from Firefox to support a "standard browser config", at which point GSuite could add support for managed Firefox config? If you want managed Firefox, Mozilla could offer that as well (they have something but it's different enough).

spwa4 4 hours ago | parent [-]

The alternative that we've used for the past 100+ years is to force such companies apart. Is Google Docs allowed to offer a "managed chrome" policy? Sure. Is Google Chrome allowed to be a browser? Absolutely!

But if either side is close to a monopoly, both cannot be part of the same company, even if that means breaking an existing company up.

jm4 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It is a security feature. In a corporate environment, you generally don't want users installing their own software. If it's a remote access thing from a personal device, you still generally want to be able to establish some kind of baseline. I don't like Chrome - not even a little bit - but I will admit that they have a pretty damn good security track record. I'd rather my remote users be on there than some crusty Firefox installation with 40 extensions. Organizations have the right to make these decisions when they are the ones that own the data. For example, when I was still in that world, we required personal phones to be encrypted to access corporate email. This was when a lot of people would still walk around with devices without a pin. People complained, but it was non-negotiable.

hnlmorg 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Literally the only reason they can argue Chrome is more secure than Firefox in that kind of setting is because they can Google can push Google Chrome profiles via Google Workspaces but they’ve never working with Mozilla to create an interop for Firefox.

When Microsoft did this with Windows, AD, and Internet Explore, it was deemed a breach of anti-trust laws. The question is whether such laws apply to Google given they don’t have a monopoly in the identity services domain.

If you’d asked me 5 years ago, I’d have said “no way”, but recent judgements with Apple and their App Store lead me to think there is still hope. Regardless of how remote that might be.

jchw 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Note that making lock-in features like this effectively proprietary to the Chrome browser is only possible because of the fact that it's the same company making Google Workspace and Google Chrome.

I absolutely see many problems with this and you really ought to as well.

charcircuit 5 hours ago | parent [-]

>only possible

Two different companies can partner together and release features in both of the company's interests.

jchw 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I didn't mean it would be physically impossible, which is hopefully implied, I mean, it would be de-facto impossible. Absent the perverse forces of anticompetitive behavior, browsers don't really have a good incentive to diminish the open nature of web standards by doing partnerships that bypass standards altogether. If you are not affiliated with Google and there is a healthy ecosystem of browsers, you just simply can tell them to bug off if they want some web feature you feel wouldn't be good for the health of the web. The interaction between browser vendors and certificate authorities has traditionally been a great example of how things can work out between different entities in an ecosystem, though outside Mozilla I am guessing most of the browser vendors are also CAs (but still have very little to no incentive to compromise or weaken the system.)

Meanwhile, in our current reality, both Google and Apple have or currently are shoehorning platform level attestation into the web in various different ways, something they are mostly able to do because they have so much control over multiple major ecosystems (among platforms, browsers, web services.) Mostly, even making them "standards", which would be hilarious if it wasn't literally evil. (Apple's approach to sneaking this in is innovative, in that it technically is a hardware platform attestation mechanism, but it was sold and initially implemented as a convenience feature. That and the underlying PAT technology can be used in strictly non-evil ways, like Kagi's rather clever application.)

It's a lot of words to say that I didn't mean literally impossible, but if we're going to get pedantic then a lot of words it is.

charcircuit 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>browsers don't really have a good incentive

Why wouldn't money be an incentive. If businesses are willing to pay to have locked down browser access their cloud files, and the cloud file website wants to make money by charging businesses for this feature it makes sense that they may pay a browser to develop such a feature to use with their website.

jchw 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I dunno, it just seems like the set of circumstances that would be needed to overcome the inherent friction in a "healthy" ecosystem is a lot more gymnastics than the current situation where the browser company with the vast majority of marketshare is the company that has conflicts of interest to fuck with the browser.

dijit 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Google and Microsoft shouldn’t be giving levers that bake you more into their ecosystem regardless.

Your corporate serfdom is not in question, but I disagree with that notion too.

ktm5j 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's a paid product, they are actually allowed to do this. Google is obviously going to focus on security testing with their own browser. It's understandable that organizations want to require chrome for their employees to access their workspace in the interest of security, but it's not the default.

There is zero problem here guys.

saghm 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> It's understandable that organizations want to require chrome for their employees to access their workspace in the interest of security, but it's not the default.

Can you elaborate on why you think that Firefox is inherently insecure in some way for accessing Google workspaces?

> It's a paid product, they are actually allowed to do this.

If that were the only metric, then no monopoly would ever be broken up for any reason (which I guess is the way regulation seems to work nowadays, but at least in theory it's supposed to be possible for it to happen sometimes). The idea that using market pressure from one product a company sells to squeeze out competition in another is totally fine as long as the first product is paid is not a premise I agree with.

rabeener 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t think anyone is saying Firefox is inherently bad. What I’m reading, and what I believe, is Google just has a better product for secure enterprise browsing because of the controls they offer

The browser is where basically all your work happens, especially as a Workspace customer—think about how much of your work is done in the browser. That makes it a huge, attractive attack surface. And attackers don't even need a browser vulnerability; they can just convince an employee to install a malicious browser extension, and suddenly they can steal passwords, watch everything you do, and hijack your sessions on other sites.

So security teams need visibility into what's happening in the browser. Google does a decent—not great—job of providing this through Managed Chrome: centralized logs, control over which extensions can be installed, even alerts when someone reuses their Workspace password elsewhere.

Firefox, Safari, and most others don't offer these business controls, which means a security team allowing them is flying blind. And a blind security team is gonna have a bad time… mmmkay.

On support: someone mentioned using Firefox to verify their app works across browsers—god's work, truly. But not every vendor does that, so IT ends up fielding "this site just isn't working" tickets that turn out to be browser compatibility issues. Fewer supported browsers means a smaller surface to support and a better experience all around.

This can't be enforced where you're not using your corporate identity. A Dropbox account on your personal email is still accessible from any browser.

vel0city 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Can you elaborate on why you think that Firefox is inherently insecure in some way for accessing Google workspaces?

Allowing users running who knows what version of Firefox (or any "non-validated"/unmanaged browser, not necessarily just Firefox) browser running who knows what extensions can be pretty unsafe. There are lots of malicious extensions out there that are stupid simple to install.

In the Workspace world, Chrome can be configured and enforced to have certain kinds of settings applied. Only allowing certain extensions. Ensure certain version ranges. That sort of thing.

dminik 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm pretty sure Firefox is configurable using AD. So is automatically updating (not sure about freezing versions).

If you don't want your user to run whatever version with whatever extension you can do that.

vel0city 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure. But there's generally no standardized function ensuring they're actually only using that specifically configured browser when logging in. What happens when they try to log in from some other device? What happens when they manage to load a browser on to that machine?

This feature supposedly ensures (or at least pushes users to) only the approved browsers running approved configurations are allowed to log in to the company's instances of Workspace.

lern_too_spel 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If a corporation with my data allowed access to its internal tools using any browser running any arbitrary and possibly compromised third party extensions, that's a data leak and class action lawsuit waiting to happen.

wslh 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I would say it's common to find dark patterns that involves ambiguity like the discussion we are having here. We can't know for sure but Google can increase the probability of being on their ecosystem.