| ▲ | bbeonx 7 hours ago |
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| ▲ | nhinck2 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| People who have intellectually based skills think it makes them an intellectual. They fail to understand that their skill doesn't generalise. That and the hyperglazing and platforming they get for having said skill makes them a prime candidate for exposing how average they are. |
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| ▲ | adamsb6 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What a brave new world where only machines possess general intelligence. |
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| ▲ | slashdave 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It is possible to rationalize all sorts of irrational ideas. It's a trap many fall into. |
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| ▲ | frollogaston 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Referring to this or what? Reddit post is gone, but Yahoo has something. > "I do not believe that humans have an attribute called gender," Shazeer wrote, news site the Information reported Friday. "I do not believe that G-d puts people in the wrong bodies. I do not believe that it is okay to sterilize children. You have the right to your beliefs. I do not share them." It's not dumb, and it's ridiculous if Google really has a problem with this. But it also says he kept accusing coworkers of being antisemitic, which clearly crosses the line into disrupting work. |
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| ▲ | manwithopinions 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Accusing coworkers of being antisemitic crosses the line, but accusing coworkers of sterilizing children and denying the existence of gender is ok? Surely both are bad, neither is acceptable in a workplace. Do you mean it’s not dumb because you share his views? | | |
| ▲ | frollogaston 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The first one doesn't accuse coworkers of sterilizing children. As for saying there's no gender attribute, I disagree, but it's just his belief and not a dumb one either. | | |
| ▲ | wk_end 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The "sterilizing children" is how anti-trans activists talk about giving trans children gender-affirming care. Framing it this way makes it sound monstrous rather than an unfortunate side-effect of a medically necessary procedure, in the same way that characterizing a surgeon who performs hysterectomies for women with ovarian cancer as "a doctor who goes around sterilizing women" would be painting them in an unfair light. And of course he's not directly accusing his coworkers of "sterilizing children", but he's 1) using language that compares politically sensitive health services that many of his coworkers or their families may have used and/or may feel defensive about to atrocities and 2) accusing his coworkers of supporting atrocities. That feels quite disruptive and inappropriate in the work environment IMO. | | |
| ▲ | frollogaston 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | That all assumes it's a medically necessary procedure, which is exactly what people disagree about. And again, no mention of coworkers in that quote at least, not said in a work setting either. | | |
| ▲ | wk_end 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What's medically necessary is for a person and their own doctors to decide on, not for you or some AI engineer or anyone else to disagree about. | | |
| ▲ | frollogaston 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not when public money is involved, which pro-trans voices absolutely want it to be. And even without it, society does have reasons to concern itself with how parents treat their children. There's no side that separates the responsibilities, it's just a matter of who thinks this is socially right. | | |
| ▲ | wk_end an hour ago | parent [-] | | I actually don't know how much of that's especially true where doctors are involved. We as a society strictly regulate who can call themselves a doctor and the credentials that are required to do so, and then in doing so entrust them as a class to be reliable arbiters of what constitutes what's medically necessary, how public medical funds should be spent (which, even if that's something activists agitate for, is still a separate issue), and so on. We also entrust them to help monitor how parents are treating their children. Anyway, to double back once, it actually doesn't really "assume it's a medically necessary procedure"; we can soften it to something like a "medically desired procedure" and the point in fact still stands that Shazeer's wording - which really should be the point here, not re-enacting the tired trans healthcare debate - is deliberately incendiary and manipulative. Broadly, no one is advocating for parents to be sterilizing their children as an end to itself, so it shouldn't be characterized as such. | | |
| ▲ | frollogaston an hour ago | parent [-] | | Doctors are allowed to make judgement calls within whatever rules the insurance providers and laws give. The status quo before all this was that gender-affirming care was never covered, which changed to always covered in discrete steps across the 2000s and 2010s. Doctors didn't get to decide that on their own. Before that even, medical schools instill rules and values that come mostly from the outside, while the medical knowledge and experience is from the inside. Another controversy is physician-assisted s–... euthanasia. Some doctors would consider it medically necessary, but they can't legally perform or even recommend it, as it's considered murder. They can in Canada. Abortion of a viable fetus not threatening the mother is illegal in all 50 US states, but legal in many states in earlier stages, again based on what the states consider murder (but the doctor judges what is viable or a threat to the mother). Anyway if gender-affirming care is just medically desired but not medically necessary, the sterilization is accepted but not necessary. I agree with the spirit of the wording, even though it's imprecise, because it highlights that children are taking on an irreversible side effect. It's a short quote and not a whole essay where he gets to clarify. |
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| ▲ | bbeonx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | yeah, the argument is ridiculous; like, formally, it is ridiculous. i also disagree with the sentiment and conclusions of the argument, but the actual form of the argument is garbage: "i introduce an axiom that says there is no gender and therefore the distinction between sex and gender doesn't exist". | | |
| ▲ | frollogaston an hour ago | parent [-] | | He thinks there's no gender. I could give reasons why I disagree, but not proof, same with the religion he kinda mentions. |
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| ▲ | ignoramous 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's not dumb, and it's ridiculous if Google really has a problem with this. Google knows Shazeer's value & paid $2bn to c.ai for it: Its undesirable for anyone (regardless of their seniority) to engage in a discussion without being invited to it. Flaring up discord isn't how someone in a leadership position at a huge company is supposed to operate. It is another thing if they've got the "fuck you" money & a few feathers to rattle; then they do whatever without care. > But it also says he kept accusing coworkers of being antisemitic Per reports, Sergey Brin said something similar in the internal forums, too. Don't think its the only problem. After all, Shazeer can literally pick & choose where they want to work, and probably has more leverage over GDM than GDM does over him. | | |
| ▲ | frollogaston 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I know about the Sergey Brin thing too, same issue but tbh less important of a person |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It gets to their head. I had had a boss (from a YC-funded company, no less) that behaved in this way. Talked down on me with the g-slur, used language barriers to alienate his peers, and demanded religious sensitivity whenever we met after work. His entire life was defined by this religiously insecure identity, and several meetings were derailed by him thinking he was slighted by the rest of the team. That led to team members avoiding him, which reaffirmed his perception of being discriminated against. In reality we were all just baffled by his inability to adopt a secular work ethic. As a queer person I could partially empathize with his behavior. Some of the smartest queer people I know are also frustrated, downtrodden and crass in protest of their mistreatment. But they're also generally grounded people that buckle down at work and get things done. They don't accuse people of being bigoted, lash out at coworkers or use slurs in the office. Perhaps it helps that queer identity isn't eschatological in nature, but that's only my best guess. |
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| ▲ | Avicebron 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | the g-slur? I won't say it in case it is a slur, is that the word the jews call non-jews? | | |
| ▲ | sebzim4500 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That makes way more sense, I thought he meant gypsy. In either case he should just say the word, this site isn't for children. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Avicebron is correct. I avoided being specific because I didn't want to derail the thread with responses from people that fulminate over specific keywords. |
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| ▲ | woodruffw 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Whether or not “goy” is a slur is pretty complicated. It has pejorative uses, and outside of a strictly religious context any non-Jew is almost certainly only going to see those pejorative uses. But strictly speaking it’s a Hebrew word that means “nation,” and isn’t any more or less offensive in the abstract than Jew, Arab, Brit, etc. (To my understanding, the closest equivalent is “ummah” in Arabic, where the connotation is flipped: goy can refer to a Jewish person but typically does not, whereas the ummah typically refers to Muslim peoples as a collective but can also be a general stand-in for “nation” or “world.”) | | |
| ▲ | throw368833 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It’s not literally a slur, but because it has developed negative connotations Jewish people tend to avoid it nowadays. Online, you are more likely to see it used by antisemites. Which is why I think that story is very likely bullshit. It’s from an account that very frequently posts pro-IRGC content, and has previously used “the G word” itself. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46247908 | | |
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| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | madspindel 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think he ment Gypsy and not Gentile. | | |
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| ▲ | throw368833 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Your contribution to a story about a Jewish person is that you once worked for a Jew and you didn’t like him. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thank you for your input, six-number throwaway. I am answering the parent's question while humanizing a complex, intelligent person that I worked for. |
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| ▲ | bbeonx 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | tomhow 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Please don't comment like this here. The HN guidelines ask us not to engage in political or ideological battle or use swipes like "comically stupid take". Same goes for your other comment in this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48590901) – "sigh how are so many brilliant people this stupid?" adds nothing but venom to the discussion. Please read the guidelines and make an effort to observe them if you want to participate here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | | |
| ▲ | bbeonx an hour ago | parent [-] | | the first post was a swipe, i'll grant you. probably shouldn't have said it. it was a knee-jerk reaction to a structurally fallacious argument that leaves no room for discussion: "i reject your stance not based on reason, evidence, or anything that you can interact with, but based on an new presupposition i've just now decided is true". though i'll admit the severity of my knee jerking was probably amplified by some of the other opinions he holds. the second post is actually about (a) me having understanding for a position of someone i disagree with harshly, and (b) the logical structure of an argument, not the underlying topic itself. it was in reference to the content of the link that was posted. anyway, mods can take it down, i get why the rules are there. you're also right to ask folks to keep it clean. but i stand by it; dude just seems to have a trifecta of awful traits and i'm so so so tired of super rich tech dudes ruining the world. |
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| ▲ | altmanaltman 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | dekhn 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What you're describing about gender is.... not really scientific. It was basically declared by fiat by researchers. It's not an authoritative definition and many people disagree with the concept, at least when it gets conflated with scientific topics. | | |
| ▲ | bbeonx an hour ago | parent [-] | | there are some things that clearly exist that are really hard to nail down with definitions; once we get into anything social, we are kinda playing with that territory. everything is so fuzzy that our normal way of defining things breaks down. so saying precisely what gender _is_ is going to be almost impossible. but there are definitely roles and traits that are highly correlated with a person's birth sex that are distinct from their birth sex. there can even be genetic reasons why those correlations emerged. but they are still distinct. as evidence, what it _means_ to be a man, woman, etc, differs from society to society. if you ask me to quantify this precisely, i will struggle. but it's plain for all to see. |
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| ▲ | p1necone 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think you need to read their comment again - they are clearly talking about sex and gender as two different concepts. | |
| ▲ | bbeonx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | sorry, is this in response to my post? in which case, this is exactly the distinction i'm making. the entire argument is whether or not there _is_ a distinction; my point is that this guy just, a priori, decides gender doesn't exist. but there is plenty of evidence that it does. there are plenty of social traits associated with sex that differ across different cultures: pink used to be a manly color, now it's a feminine color; "be a man" doesn't literally mean "make sure your sex is male"; etc. there are traits that are heavily correlated with a person's sex that are culturally reinforced, and this is distinct from their sex. | |
| ▲ | wincy 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a motte and bailey though. A regular person on the street has never seen a distinction between these two words, and common sense prevailed after years of Silicon Valley policing of speech to try to make an unpopular position seem tenable and widely agreed upon to get the average person to step in line. | | |
| ▲ | p1necone 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are you seriously trying to claim that e.g. wearing dresses or liking the color pink is somehow fundamentally tied the the genitals in your pants or the chromosomes you have? The idea that gender is a social concept is so blindingly obvious that, like bbeonx I kind of assume that anyone making comments like yours about "common sense" is either blindly parroting talking points without thinking about them, or arguing in bad faith. |
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| ▲ | tentlewick 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | p1necone 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Basically saying that women and men should present and behave within a narrow set of parameters. I think you're putting words into peoples mouths there. Acknowledging that there is a social construct we generally know of as "gender" and acknowledging that certain stereotypes and common understandings of that concept exist is not at all the same thing as demanding that people should fit into the narrowest stereotypes that you can think of. Also worth noting that you acknowledging the existence of sexist stereotyping is an acknowledgement of the existence of gender as a social construct. | |
| ▲ | AlotOfReading 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are both descriptive and normative uses of gender. To use a less charged example, it's not prescriptive to identify as American. It's not prescriptive to say other people identify you that way, even if your passport says Canadian. An example of using the category normatively would be saying someone isn't American because they burn the flag. My experience is that most of the people using "gender" normatively don't differentiate it from sex. |
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| ▲ | chubs 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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