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oezi 7 hours ago

Such studies are great but there is no regulatory pathway to extend the use of existing drugs for new indications of use without the consent of the manufacturer (or becoming a manufacturer yourself).

This means such studies can give more clarity on which off-label use is beneficial but it can't be an officially allowed usage.

intrasight 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There tens of millions of people being treated off-label.

uberex 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Can confirm. LDN user here.

cjbgkagh 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Also a LDN user, that drug saved my life. I bought it from a shady dude online, the initial effect was so strong that I thought they shipped me meth instead - that wore off after a week but the lifting of the brain fog persisted.

jnovek 5 hours ago | parent [-]

It didn’t have that sort of immediate, intense effect for me (though yours isn’t the only account like this that I’ve seen) but I’m still happy with the outcome; it dropped my average 1-to-10 pain score by about two points at three months.

cjbgkagh 5 hours ago | parent [-]

It is a rare side effect, I helped a bunch of people (~50) get LDN, primarily for LongCovid, and only one other had a similar ‘too much energy’ effect and both of us have multiple TNXB SNPs and a very similar rare personality profile. I think the brain is so starved for dopamine at that point that it becomes hyper sensitive. I do miss the extra high energy but I also know that isn’t maintainable and I try to err on the side of caution.

I’ve had ME/CFS my whole life but the third covid vaccine shot sent me to new lows, to the point LDN just wasn’t cutting it anymore. These days I take a combo of modafinil in the morning and amitryptiline at night. And low dose ozempic has been super helpful as well. I was researching GLP1As prior to the current craze because I was worried about hyper sensitivity so I waited for more data before trying, I started at 1/100th the normal starting dose and still got temporary gastroparesis. These days I take a more regular dose of 1mg/wk but it also seems that my body has largely normalized as the hypersensitivities have worn off. Probably a good sign that I’ve successfully addressed actual deficiencies.

oezi 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The doctors are assuming liability or let the patient sign waivers, which I guess is fine. But the lack of a pathway prevents a lot of commercial possibilities. For instance it is almost impossible to build a business around supporting off-label use cases (for instance selling necessary accessories).

jnovek 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I have some difficult-to-treat medical issues and about 1/3 of the handful of pills I take every day are off-label. I think when you get into less common medical concerns off-label use becomes much, much more frequent.

E.g. gabapentin is an anti-seizure medication that has been found to reduce neuropathic pain as well. It has shot up to the 5th most prescribed medication in the last decade as it has replaced long-term opioid use for new chronic neuropathic pain patients. This is 100% off-label and is prescribed by everyone from NPs all the way up to neurosurgeons for this purpose.

I’ve never been asked to sign a waiver and I can’t imagine that for-profit hospitals would allow their doctors to prescribe off-label medications willy-nilly if they represented big liability. (I don’t know this for sure, this is just what my experience implies.)

cogman10 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yup, I've seen this sort of off label prescription at least 3 times.

A lot of drugs require almost no evidence (especially if they are relatively cheap or common) to be given to the insurance company when they are prescribed. And if you are willing to pay for it, you can always pay out of pocket if insurance is being a pain.

fc417fc802 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I’ve never been asked to sign a waiver

That presumably has to do with the risk profile of the medications you've taken. If there was a high risk of devastating side effects and it was off label presumably the prescriber wouldn't be willing to take on the liability.

nradov 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Do you know that for a fact or are you just guessing?

mothballed 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I would wager if those waivers actually did anything they'd boilerplate a generic version of it in the legal mumbo jumbo you have to sign even if you come in to have the doctor look at a stubbed toe.

Aurornis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Off label prescribing is extremely common.

This isn’t a new or novel concept. Doctors manage patients with off-label prescriptions all day long.

mothballed 4 hours ago | parent [-]

To get a drug approved you have to go through regulatory approval for a particular use. If the fuck-fuck game is you can just off-label for whatever but only if first approved by the FDA to solve some other problem, why not just bypass the bullshit and get straight to the point of approving the drug without any approved use? Oh yes, because that assures the barriers to entry are arbitrarily higher, and Pfizer and other ilk can insulate themselves from competition. Thanks FDA!

_DeadFred_ 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Like a lot of the systems we have today, it grew from good intentions. We need to figure out a way to refresh our systems without throwing them away. The current system does provide new drugs and benefit. The question is is it limiting, and are the tradeoff of those limits worth while.

In other words it takes hard work, with politically risky outcomes and an upside that becomes invisible as far as political careers go. We need to figure out how to refresh our systems in an environment where that type of thing just stumbles along. Maybe a couple of politicians elected who have lost out because of the status quo, but that want to improve it not throw it away. Maybe working with them to motivate them to take it on as a pet project and move things.

mothballed 4 hours ago | parent [-]

If we're just letting doctors yolo* off-label, i have no problem with that, but that functionally relegates FDA protections to testing risk profile at some particular dose regimen, with a bunch of extra bullshit tacked on that is highly inefficient process for off-label use even if partially applicable.

It's pretty clear if you're allowing off-label use you can just gate dose-risk profile at one gate and then just add additional gates for on-label uses if you want to approve one.

Of course the issue is the FDA regulator gets the hammer and damned if anything goes wrong but nothing good happens to them if they approve something. So they have no real incentive to approve anything except ideological satisfaction to whatever extent it lives within their mind, plus whatever revolving door benefits industry is offering them.

Probably best to reward the FDA employees for approving good drugs so that the prisoners' dilemma doesn't always fall back to erring on the side of denials, and being easier on them for taking some risk that approves bad drugs to the point they're willing to take some risk to let potentially good drugs through. The regulator doesn't get to see all the bad they cause by not approving drugs because that's invisible, and that's the unintended consequence of their activities and something they're not really held to account for.

* --------- re: below due to throttling -------

>Doctors aren't yoloing it.

If you take offense, call it whatever the hell you want, I was using it in the context of using a drug for a non-approved off-label use. You're making no legal distinction, it's not an FDA approved use and telling the FDA you have some evidence elsewhere but you won't be going through the process to approve it doesn't mean dick to the approval process anymore than my disapproved use of the world "yolo" to refer to same does. If the best my counterparties have is disapproving of "yolo" I rest my case.

cogman10 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Doctors aren't yoloing it.

What's happening is further research on the medicines are being done which show medicinal benefits for off label use. In many cases, it's researchers seeing a drug has a known side effect and saying "Hmm, I wonder if that side effect can counter this symptom".

What's lacking is the final FDA approval for the drugs being used for these off label treatments. That's because these drugs have to go through all the same tests that are required to get FDA approval in the first place.

IMO, for already approved drugs there should be a faster secondary route to getting these drugs approved for current off label usages. Ideally, it'd be something the FDA itself spearheads in partnership with the likes of the NIH.

rvba 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Problem with FDA is that they try the "one size fits all" what often leads to blocking something that works onlu for a group of patients.

Problem with doctors preascribing against FDA is that it can lead to problems or abuse.

Om an unrelated note, FDA could have been bribed to ban something same way a doctor cpuld have been bribed to prescribe it.

overgard 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's not my experience at all, my doctor's have prescribed plenty of things off label. No special waivers.

forgetfreeman 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The business is already built given the drug in question is already being manufactured and available on the market.

toomuchtodo 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> For instance it is almost impossible to build a business around supporting off-label use cases (for instance selling necessary accessories).

There is no need for a business. Off label use is hacking around the existing commercial and regulatory system. The innovation to be had is fixing said commercial and regulatory system, not another business. Make cheap drugs or medical supplies, distribute them to those in need with as little margin and risk to the patient as possible. This is a utility system masquerading as a market. More duct tape by way of new businesses is suboptimal.

vidarh 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The article points out that it is typically after patent expiry that the universities and hospitals start looking at repurposing.

oezi 6 hours ago | parent [-]

The patents aren't hindering off-label use. The hinder commercial exploitation by others.

vidarh 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, but that isn't relevant to what happens after the type of trials described in the article, which tends to happen when the patents are no longer relevant. As the article points out, while the drugs are patented, the manufacturers themselves are generally very interested in repurposing because it broadens their market. The article is discussing trials that mostly happens once the patents have expired.

dpark 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is all untrue so far as I understand.

A research group can file for a new drug application (or abbreviated new drug application) for an existing drug. There is no mandate that an NDA sponsor be a manufacturer or the existing manufacturer.

Only the entity holding an approved NDA can file a supplemental NDA but that’s not the only path.

The real reason no one files for off label use is that there’s high cost and little to no practical benefit to doing so.

ktallett 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This isn't completely true at least in the UK. It is simply that the manufacturer is no longer responsible legally. The GMC allow prescibing of unlicensed meds. However the change needs to be made to the pathway. So many issues in the NHS has been due to pathway problems.

boxed 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That seems wild. Do you have a citation to back that up? And in what country/countries?

amanaplanacanal 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm in the US, and there are a couple of wrinkles to this: insurance typically won't cover off label use, so patients end up paying the full cost of the medication, and if there is a big enough market, I believe companies can patent the new use even if the patents for the original use have run out.

Doctors here are allowed to prescribe them though.

Aurornis 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> insurance typically won't cover off label use

I’m in the US. This is not true.

Insurance will have prior authorization rules for certain drugs that are expensive that require the doctor to submit documentation of the condition, but in most cases the common medication is simply covered if prescribed. The insurance company does not receive documentation of every condition for every prescription to determine if the prescription is on label or off label.

Insurance companies can and do also support some off label treatments that are commonly used under their prior auth requirements.

I don’t know why there are so many comments in this thread making confident assertions that off label prescribing or insurance or so uncommon. This happens all day long at doctors offices and pharmacies.

dpark 4 hours ago | parent [-]

So much weirdly confident misinformation here. When LLMs do this we can it hallucination.

Jblx2 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Can't tell if this comment is agreeing with Aurornis or calling them out.

dpark an hour ago | parent [-]

Agreeing. There is a ton of blatant misinformation being shared in this thread by people who seem utterly confident despite their apparently complete ignorance.

jpk2f2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Insurance absolutely covers off label use. And depending on the area of medicine, off label use can be incredibly common (see cardiac pediatrics).

bonsai_spool 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I believe companies can patent the new use even if the patents for the original use have run out.

This is not true

> insurance typically won't cover off label use

Generally not true but it can be the case, especially for expensive medications

amanaplanacanal 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes new uses of existing drugs can be patented:

https://www.drugpatentwatch.com/blog/patenting-new-uses-for-...

bonsai_spool 5 hours ago | parent [-]

This is clearly made by an LLM and thus not a credible resource.

From:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9336118/

"COM claims can be difficult to gain for repurposed compounds, as the patentee must somehow differentiate their patent claims over what is in the public domain and present data that the drug is a credible candidate for the new indication [41, 42]."

citing

41 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32241561/

42 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30310233/

amanaplanacanal 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

Do you like this source better?

https://synapse.patsnap.com/blog/what-are-the-types-of-pharm...?

tekla 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> insurance typically won't cover off label use

That's a lie, I get off-label drugs prescribed monthly covered.