Remix.run Logo
epistasis 8 hours ago

I'm surviving on consulting income for a wide variety of clients right now in this space, and let me tell you it's brutal and extremely difficult to get entry to this space for people that don't have a wide network and lots of industry experience. Academic experience typically doesn't count.

In addition there's a severe "passion tax" for these sorts of jobs, the salary difference for a "Data Scientist, Computational Biology", and "Computational Biologist" is pretty big, and hiring is also brutal.

I know a ton of extremely talented people who have been locked out of employment for a long time now. The high interest environment means that biotech investing has been hit extremely hard, as biotech is even higher risk than most software and AI spending (thanks for the correction, Schlagbohrer). Pharma companiees with big hits, like Lilly with GLP1 agonists, are hiring a bit as they try to move into the modern era of pharma with lots of AI tools, but it's still brutal.

snailshare 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There is some history to why it is as grim as it is right now (sunny skies will return, don't worry!). A lot of funding was around ~2019 from the VC people, and biomed PIs were getting their startups funded and hiring from the recent PhD cohorts. The horrible environment in STEM academic hiring needs no introduction, so the talent pool was rich. Early stage drug development and biotech is horrendously risky, so most don't make it past ~5-7 years. Now there are lots of people looking for a job, and the only surviving companies are the extremely hiring averse ones.

Schlagbohrer 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Did you mean to write, high interest rate environment?

caseysoftware 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Academic experience typically doesn't count."

Why not?

godelski 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

  > Why not?
Weird egos. I moved from academia to industry and constantly got told "In industry we just care that 'it works'". I thought that was a weird premise, given... you know... who doesn't? But the more time I spent in industry the more time I found that they in fact do not care if it actually works. What seems to matter more is the politics and about "working"[0] the right way using the right new buzzword[1]

Truth is that the work and complexity is not that divorced. Honestly, the work in academia felt harder, though more fulfilling. Industry work hasn't made me have to really think deeply. If anything, I've heard most of my coworkers (at multiple companies) say something along the lines of "we have to move so fast that there's no time to think." Given that (multiple) managers tell me I'm "too slow" just because I'm not producing tons of lines of code (I'm neck and neck with everyone on milestones), I understand what they're talking about. Industry has a working mode of "do first, think second" while academia often thinks first. The reason is really because it is a lot cheaper to think first.

[0] It works enough for some demo to some person

[1] One example is I beat a company's fancy giant transformer based image detector with a scrappy CNN that took only a few hours to train. They were excited for all of 1 day and then wouldn't let me do the same thing to the transformer model (which would have had a bigger impact). Fun fact, my boss also loved to tell me about how dumb academia is because they never do anything useful and how industry makes all the real advancements.

mbreese 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Biotech and academia have very different standards for data quality and reproducibility. Most of the biotech people I know view academic research as an interesting first draft at best.

snailshare 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Drug development is just a totally different game. The tools are the same but the difference between what the reviewers at your favorite high impact publication want and what the FDA wants are pretty different. People spend their whole careers getting good at the latter in the same way people get good at the former. I've seen people come from academia and thrive and I've also seen the struggle. Some people also go to school with the goal of doing drug development, which sometimes academic folks don't realize. - person who was good at microscope and ended up in early stage drug development ~10y

garciasn 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can’t speak to this particular sector; however, I have found academics to lag 5-7y behind the realities of the business world I operate in.

Business moves incredibly fast; academia, not so much.

totetsu 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

If it’s constantly 5-7 years behind isn’t it moving at the same speed just with an offset?

sandworm101 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Because the results from an acedemic paper are not, ever, going to be injected into a customer's arm. Developing products for sale in the real world is very different than designing lab experiments.

tennfown an hour ago | parent [-]

Sure, but it would seem the solution would be to hire the recently minted PhDs and teach them through more senior staff how to operate in the real world, just like in literally any other profession.

Instead you’ll just whine until they let you import a billion more Indians

coliveira 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

Because that's ultimately their goal! It's just smoke, mirrors, and complaining so they can get the cheap labor.

doctorpangloss 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't know if it's so much that talented people are being locked out, as much as it is that communities everywhere, not just industry, are requiring a level of people skills that academic people lack but nonetheless thrive without.

wholinator2 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Academics do have a reputation that way, but only the 100% safe, tenured ones. The majority of academics are required to have a strong level of communication just to get their grants accepted. Imagine if, on top of working your normal job at maximum efficiency, you then had to make a presentation to the government every year about why you and everyone that depends upon you deserves to eat, while the government you make the presentation to becomes increasingly antagonistic and detached.

There's quite a lot of people skills involved in surviving as an academic in today's environment. Imagine if you had to teach calculus to 150 random, uninterested teenagers (barely adults) every 12 weeks. There's some serious people skills involved in doing a good job at that (most people do actually try to teach well, I've known multiple people this year refused tenure based on rate-my-teacher ratings).

It's a different set of skills for sure, but being an academic isn't as socially challenged as the zeitgeist appears to believe.

doctorpangloss 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

do you think communication skills and people skills are the same thing?

i like academics, don't misunderstand me.

nfw2 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> do you think communication skills and people skills are the same thing?

yes, or at least largely overlapping circles

thaumasiotes 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They might co-occur, but they aren't the same thing. It's easy to communicate something in a way that (a) the recipient understands clearly; and (b) the recipient refuses to acknowledge despite understanding it. And in the other direction, you can persuade people to do things without them ever understanding what you want or why the things should be done.

nfw2 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Persuasion based on pathos or ethos instead of logic is also communication

doctorpangloss 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

okay... here's another way of thinking about it: claude, gemini and chatgpt are very good at communicating. but, would you marry claude? would you want claude to be your boss? would you want claude to be your coworker? a lot of people are choosing claude to be their intern, which is something.

what i am saying is, having people skills are the answers "yes" to all those questions. you can cynically call getting a job nepotism, or you can call it, well people like to work with their friends at the cost of measures of competency. and maybe, the core competency is being pleasant to work with or work for.

another place people struggle with this is executive compensation. if i told every DoD employee they could get a 10x better boss for only $20/y, every single one would, which is $58m in executive compensation. but the DoD CAN'T do that, and its leadership is TERRIBLE, so... do you see?

jmalicki 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> would you want claude to be your boss? would you want claude to be your coworker?

I've had worse. Mostly much better, but I've had worse.

LoganDark 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> claude, gemini and chatgpt are very good at communicating

There is no communication there. No concepts for them to communicate. It is just math.

nfw2 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Regardless of the implementation, claude causes concepts to enter my brain, so it is at least one-way communication. Human brains have mundane implementations as well: chemical signals firing across neural synapses. No magic special sauce, at least not that we can detect

bavell 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My rock collection causes concepts to enter my brain, but I don't think I'd say they're communicating with me, nor I with them.

LoganDark 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I would say you communicate to the model and you interpret the model's outputs. I would not say the model communicates back though.

I'm not sure that models are complex enough to have a consistent internal representation of a concept the same way that organic brains can to communicate. I'm not sure of any quantitative science backing this up though. Models don't know anything across iterations yet.

blackoil 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Models don't know anything across iterations yet.

Can you expand. They have both context and memory?

LoganDark 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Most models do not have any persistent state or output that is separate from their input. They consume a stream of tokens and then output a probability distribution. The probability distribution will always be the exact same for that particular stream of tokens. There is no internal state, thoughts, mood etc., only prediction based on the input. "Memory" is usually just something injected into context by the harness and updated by usually a tool call from the model.

I'm sure there are research prototypes that work differently from this but I haven't seen any enter the mainstream yet.

Also, diffusion language models have a different evaluation order but I think they also do not really have internal thoughts or feelings because they also do not seem to have any sort of hidden state that encodes anything like that.

mothballed 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

awesome_dude 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Academic's, FTR, have to have a huge amount of people skills. Their job isn't just to discover, it's to share.

You cannot share (effectively) if you cannot communicate in a way that others can understand.

Further the entire ecosystem that academics rely on to get what they need to do for their research (grants, and other funding, resources, and so on) necessitate them to convince people who control those, who do not necessarily understand the purpose of the work

thaumasiotes 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The high interest environment means that biotech investing has been hit extremely hard

I don't think this reasoning can work. To the extent these things are directly related, the relationship would have to be: returns on investment are at an all-time high --> more investing than usual.

anon84873628 4 hours ago | parent [-]

When interest rates are low, capital is willing to go to riskier enterprises like biotech in order to get a larger return compared to the alternatives.

When interest rates are high, capital shifts to yield-generating, interest-bearing investments. They give higher returns with less risk.

So basically the ROI of biotech becomes less competitive compared to alternatives. You have the same number of people/firms chasing a smaller supply of investment dollars.

thaumasiotes 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This doesn't work the way you imagine.

Suppose the ROI of biotech becomes more competitive compared to alternatives, because there's an ongoing series of technological breakthroughs.

The return on investing goes up (by assumption) and this means interest rates go up (by definition; they are the return on investing).

Is this bad for biotech? Does it shift capital out of biotech? Obviously not.

klipt 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You're using "high interest rate" to mean "biotech has great returns right now".

Everyone else is using it to mean "the Federal Reserve has set the interest rate high right now"

Very different situations.

thaumasiotes an hour ago | parent [-]

The difference between those two situations can't be determined by observing the level of interest rates. That's my whole point.