| ▲ | stainablesteel 16 hours ago |
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| ▲ | btrettel 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| As a US citizen with a PhD, I didn't experience any clear discrimination in favor of foreign students during grad school. I think the main reason so few US citizens get PhDs is because PhD "student" (they're actually workers) positions pay so poorly. Make PhD student positions have non-poverty wages and you'll see a lot more interest from US citizens. On the flip side, I think foreign students experienced a lot of abusive conditions that I could more easily say no to because I didn't have a visa that required me to work at the university. I've seen some of that first hand. I don't mean to imply that there would be no cost to me saying no, just that I wouldn't have to leave the country if I said no. |
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| ▲ | gs17 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've seen clear discrimination in favor of foreign students, but it was specifically because of those abusive conditions. I know of professors who exclusively tried to recruit specific foreign nationalities (their own, typically) because they could get away with treating them worse than American students. I wouldn't have been able to get into those labs, but I also wouldn't want to. | |
| ▲ | stainablesteel 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | im referring to the admissions process, and this discrimination has been present for decades | | |
| ▲ | bdamm 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Are you thinking of affirmative action? Affirmative action is by design discriminatory, but not against nationality. It's discriminatory based on race and sex. So I think your grudge is not striking the right target. And in any case, affirmative action has been mostly wound down, which began to happen when Obama was President. Not because he did anything, but because SCOTUS declared that his election was evidence that affirmative action was no longer required and thus ruled against it in new cases. | | | |
| ▲ | handle584 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Any source? In my field US Citizens and permanent residents are actually preferred for at least two reasons, first they are eligible for graduate grants like NSF so they are not using department's money; second upon graduation they are eligible for more jobs because places like national labs do not hire foreigners. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway0123_5 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | I agree with the general sentiment of this comment, but national labs do hire foreigners/non-citizens, albeit possibly not from all countries with eligibility for all roles. |
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| ▲ | btrettel 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think I experienced discrimination during admissions either. Off the top of my head, I don't know any US citizens who told me that they wanted to go to grad school but were unable to be admitted to a school. | | | |
| ▲ | anigbrowl 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Stop vagueposting and make a proper argument. This isn't X where you get paid for posting bait. |
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| ▲ | eitally 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| When I was in grad school (2008-2011), of the 60 people in my program only 5 were American. The vast majority were Indian or Chinese (~50). I wouldn't say there was discrimination, though. The matriculation statistics were interest-based, mostly. A lot of the Americans who received their BS went immediately to industry. |
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| ▲ | Schlagbohrer 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | During my engineering grad program I was fascinated by the gender disparity among americans (almost no women) versus the nearly equal gender balance among engineering grad students from India, the Middle East (including Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia), and China. The engineering gender imbalance seems to be almost unique to the USA. Countries with awful records on women's rights sent just as many women to get PhDs as men. | | | |
| ▲ | tennfown 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My understanding this is because being a grad student is hardly an economically good deal for a typical American student, but for the sort of foreigner who can afford to send their child to school in the US, it can still be valuable. | |
| ▲ | stainablesteel 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | yeah most people are normal human beings, im saying the discrimination happens in getting admitted into the program | | |
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| ▲ | chneu 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Not really true but white Americans love to say that. Americans are the biggest bullies and and victims. |
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| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | I know a ton of people who would love to get their Phd. When they can't make it work but see graduate programs heavily populated by foreign students (who may or may not stay) funded by (what they see as) their tax dollars, some become resentful. That's a pretty normal human reaction, not a uniquely white or American one. Understanding human realities and optics might have helped here. But instead you chose 'white people evil, Americans suck'. Not productive and in part how we got here with those positions now unfunded, and just as small minded as the attitudes you're condemning. | | |
| ▲ | handle584 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Well why Americans are not willing to take those PhD offers that pay barely above poverty line for 5 years or so? The answer is obvious, they would rather take a job in industry that pays miles better. There is really no reason to be resentful because it is a voluntary choice, and foreign students are worse off in every aspect to start with. Leaving friends & family behind, travel often involves long-haul flights, different culture to blend in, not eligible for NSF grants and national lab jobs, etc. Situation is really similar to H1B workers discussed here a while ago. The options for Americans are plenty while for foreigners very scarce, and with the recent change it is getting even more so without giving Americans a bigger incentive, so it is really a lose-lose outcome. | | |
| ▲ | whyagaindavid 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think it is misunderstanding to think that Phd Salaries will increase to high level if immigrants left. Will NIH or NSF dump 3 x more money? If that is the case are civil servants in USA getting super great salary (a friend works for DMV in NJ and she says pay is awful) | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | irishcoffee 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > There is really no reason to be resentful because it is a voluntary choice, and foreign students are worse off in every aspect to start with. > Leaving friends & family behind, travel often involves long-haul flights, different culture to blend in, not eligible for NSF grants and national lab jobs, etc. Long flights and leaving friends/family behind? You mean like... most undergrad students in the US? Sitting on a plane is the argument? | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I get all that. I grew up in Santa Cruz and wish I could go home but can't because of the cost. I can't imagine having to leave my entire country. I'm not trying to put down immigrants in those positions. I am inspired by immigrants. I am inspired by foreigners who come here. But none of that addresses that many Americans dream of being in those positions, and seeing foreigners who are doing it and are being funded by government dollars instills a human (not just white American) reaction. Human nature is our reality. It's not good or evil, it's just human. Feeding into it is evil. But that there are feelings is just natural. Responding to people feeling that with 'entitled white' does not improve anything. Does not encourage them to reflect on it, or realize 'yeah, it's a dream, but I saw the reality and chose something else'. I'm not saying it's fair. I'm not saying immigrants/foreign visitors should be maligned/made to feel bad. But if we don't address it in a productive way, those human feelings become identity, become politics/actions, become toxic and destructive. H1-B I would like to see addressed, I feel it is abused by companies to exploit people. But at the same time it's so toxic now it can't be addressed because the racism is too entrenched now. My fear is the same is being put in place with Phds. We need to not push it into identity with things like 'white entitled Americans' but push the reality that it's a nice daydream but people realize they don't want the reality (and not just in a 'American's don't want to do it' way, because again that isn't productive, because people do want it, just not enough to accept what comes with it). OP is (knowingly or not) making the US more xenophobic for no productive reason. Labeling people doesn't help anything and we shouldn't do that, just like we shouldn't feed human but negative responses to other's doing things we wish we could do. | | |
| ▲ | xp84 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | A good and balanced take, this. Too bad we don't even allow those on the political stage anymore :( All we get is candidates who scream that the other side is stupid fascists or degenerates and that all their opinions are obviously stupid, since they came from obviously stupid irrational people. |
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| ▲ | conception 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What tax dollars are you referring to? America famously does not pay for people to go to higher education at any real scale. | | |
| ▲ | gs17 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | They're talking about PhDs, many of which are funded by grants. |
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| ▲ | chneu 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm a white American and I've heard a handful of my fellow white Americans say this, but they can't actually show me real world examples or show me how it actually affected them. It's willfull victim hood. It's a viewpoint of "I'm a victim in a system that has benefited me, why isn't it benefiting me over those other people anymore?" White Americans are so acquainted to benefitting the systemic issues that hold others back that equality seems unequal to white Americans. "Why is that immigrant applying for a PhD? They're pushing out a good white American!!" When I go to academic events in the US(less often now since Trump) it's still 95% white folks. Wild how that happens. Lol constant victims. I'm not trying to be a dick or rude. It's just that white Americans have no idea how entitled they are. The second someone else gets a morsel of a crumb it becomes a question of "Why did this person get something?" This is the exact thing trump and conservatives say to rile up their base and it works. It's endemic to American culture so there's no denying this. It's a question of "How much?" not if. | | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | None of this addresses that it's basic human nature. Nor provides any way to improve anything. "I'm a victim in a system that has benefited me, why isn't it benefiting me over those other people anymore?"
Again, it is normal for people to respond when a system changes to their detriment. Not a white people issue. It's also not wild/"white people" to think citizens should be favored over non-citizens by government funded programs. We have to lead people to a better position. Attempts at shaming them into it isn't going to work. Telling them 'things are just going to be worse for you you whining entitled white boy' isn't going to improve anything. "Lol constant victims. I'm not trying to be a dick or rude."
Pick one of the above. You can't pick both. "It's endemic to American culture so there's no denying this."
It's endemic to human nature, not just white American culture. You might want to broaden your human experience if you truly think this. |
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