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timr 16 hours ago

Intelligent response.

dluan 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

America is facing a multi-generational technical decline never before seen that will do irreparable harm across all fields of research, let alone the human cost especially borne by young scientists who have more to lose, and your grand insightful take is that well, some of it deserved to get cut, when you're not even the one making the decisions of which ones do receive funding.

timr 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> America is facing a multi-generational technical decline never before seen that will do irreparable harm across all fields of research

This sounds very bad! But since I'm not arguing in favor of technical decline and irreparable harm, it doesn't mean that my argument is wrong.

> let alone the human cost especially borne by young scientists who have more to lose,

I'm confused: is science funding a welfare state for people who want to be scientists, or is it a meritocracy by which we fund the development of science?

> and your grand insightful take is that well, some of it deserved to get cut,

Well...yes.

> when you're not even the one making the decisions of which ones do receive funding.

Erm, so what? I can't have an opinion on bad science?

You're not making the decision either, but apparently you're allowed to have one.

dluan 14 hours ago | parent [-]

The arrogance and ignorance so voluntarily put up on display is mind numbing.

Not only have I worked as a science funder for the past 15 years as the founder of Experiment.com and with countless partner foundations and grant programs, having personally funded and peer reviewed thousands and thousands of projects, I've also sat as a member of countless NBER meta science panels alongside NIH and NSF directors where everyone's main pressure is earnestly trying to improve the efficiency and returns of science funding. Mainly to combat the false beliefs around science funding that people like you have spread.

The number one universal lesson of funding basic research, going back from Vannevar Bush to Carl Sagan to small risky out-of-bounds research, is that you don't pick and choose where impact comes from. You don't get to try and justify based on your political preference where you think the most progress will come from. That's not any of this works. The funding of a random jellyfish protein that eventually turns into the discovery of GFP only ten years later is not the kind of thing you can try and predict ahead of time or concoct on paper.

If you don't understand how basic research and impact works, then yeah you shouldn't be allowed to have hot takes about the system that millions of scientists rely on. You're dressing up anti-intellectualism behind a sham of commitment towards meritocracy when you won't even support the people who deserve it on merit. Get lost.

timr 13 hours ago | parent [-]

> The arrogance and ignorance so voluntarily put up on display is mind numbing.

Well golly. Mind numbing!

> Mainly to combat the false beliefs around science funding that people like you have spread.

What "false beliefs" are those?

> The number one universal lesson of funding basic research, going back from Vannevar Bush to Carl Sagan to small risky out-of-bounds research, is that you don't pick and choose where impact comes from.

You literally just bragged that you were a member of countless NBER meta-science panels alongside NIH and NSF directors. Tell me more about how the "universal lesson" is that you don't pick and choose. We do it all the time.

You just don't like my opinion, but you can't argue on the merits, so you resort to this stuff.

> You don't get to try and justify based on your political preference where you think the most progress will come from.

Great. I'm not doing that.

This isn't hard: there's such a thing as derivative, bad science that is unlikely to lead to novel results. It's fair to critique research on those grounds. "Social determinants of health" is a perfect example of this kind of science. I don't even disagree with the conclusions. I just think the science is terrible and shouldn't be funded. It's not just this area: observational nutrition research is generally abysmal science, and shouldn't be funded, yet is common. There's a replication crisis across the sciences, with certain fields being overrepresented.

This is not an imaginary problem.

Arguing that we don't filter science for quality, is of course, dumb and wrong. We do it all the time. It's just that some fashionable fields are able to bypass this test, because some folks substitute politics and indignance for logic.

> You're dressing up anti-intellectualism behind a sham of commitment towards meritocracy when you won't even support the people who deserve it on merit. Get lost.

You know, for a person who wants desperately to appeal to scientific authority, you resort to personal insults a lot. You'd think, if you were truly on the winning intellectual side of this, you could deal with the actual argument.

13 hours ago | parent [-]
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Avicebron 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's actually more contrusctive to outline what the post you both are replying to you don't like and more specifically why?

timr 16 hours ago | parent [-]

> It's actually more contrusctive to outline what the post you both are replying to you don't like and more specifically why?

Come on. I wrote a multi-paragraph post with an argument (I am the OP), and the parent wrote: "what the fuck" in response.

Reply to him and ask him what he thinks is so offensive, don't ask me to make an intellectual rebuttal. I honestly shouldn't have responded at all, but I couldn't resist because of the commenter's profile. It's just so common to see someone in science who won't even engage with an argument like mine, and dismisses it with profanity/insults.

Avicebron 16 hours ago | parent [-]

My bad, on mobile, I think your stance deserves a more thoughtful critique.

Source: was in academia for a bit post 2010 and pre-2024, there was some seriously weird unscientific stuff being peddled.

estearum 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Note: There is always some seriously weird unscientific stuff being peddled literally all through the entire course of scientific history.

Did you not study the history of science at all during your jaunt through academia?

Not to say we need to just lay down and accept the badness, but it's total nonsense to suggest that your exposure to some badness is an indictment of the enterprise.

15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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