>Countries should want control over _where_ the compute is happening

Yeah but Europe doesn't build any computer hardware, and EU Green eco-communists and NIMBVYs don't want to have data centers built in their backyard, so the only way left for EU consultancies to milk taxpayer money for the AI bubble, is shipping a sovereign AI model for each country/language.

Watch out US tech sector, we're coming for you. Feel our wrath.

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davedx 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Have you heard of ASML? NXP?

Ignorant comment

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joe_mamba 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Please don't move the goalposts. What computer parts does ASML or NXP make?

ASML only makes the lithography machines, 85% of which go outside the EU (let that sink in). And then fabs in Taiwan, Korea or the US use those ASML machines to etch US IP for computer chips. EU doesn't make any computer parts domestically.

And NXP mostly makes various microcontrollers and small chips, not high margin IP decenter centric parts like ASICS, FPGAs, CPUs or GPUs.

So not only are you the ignorant one here, but you also have the audacity to insult others with so much confidence.

@dwa3592 below. Firstly, why are you moving the goalposts in bad faith again just to stir an argument? What does that have to do with my original comment?

And secondly, there's other lithography machines out there, not just ASML.

And thirdly, the IP Nvidia, AMD, etc develop to etch on silicone via ASML machines makes them more valuable than ASML.

Fourthly, repeating my "let that sink in" phrase is just childish and low-IQ trolling, unworthy of this platform.

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dwa3592 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>>ASML only makes the lithography machines

Woah! only lithography machines???? it is literally impossible to make any device capable of running anything close to AI without ASML. Let that sink in.

	▲	thesmtsolver2 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Funnily ASML owes its current success partly to US funded research (straight from Wikipedia): > Two years later, it joined a consortium, which included Intel and two other U.S. chipmakers, in order to exploit fundamental research conducted by the US Department of Energy. Because the Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) it operates under is funded by the US government, licensing must be approved by Congress.[12]
	▲	joe_mamba 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Why are you acting childish and petty? I said EU hasn't got AI compute manufacturing(aka no equivalent IP to Nvidia and AMD and no equivalent to TSMC or Samsung fabs), not that it doesn't have lithography machines manufacturing. Surely you understand that while you can have the latter, you can also lack the former.

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RetroTechie 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In a recent podcast, it was summarized as:

ASM (International) makes machines that add material to a silicon wafer (deposition).

ASML makes machines that remove material from said wafers (lithography, etching)

(I was a bit surprised that's not combined in 1 machine. But let's move on)

Then Besi makes machines to stack / interconnect / package those ICs into a package. I'm assuming pick & place machines are other companies' turf.

The above are all Dutch companies, operating a pretty important section of the tech stack.

Iirc there were (& probably still are) some IC fabs in Europe, but mostly older nodes (like useful for microcontrollers used by car manufacturers. Wikipedia has a list). So for SOTA smartphone SoCs it's off to Taiwan (TSMC), South Korea (Samsung) or China (who makes everything, including smartphones & the chips going in there).

So as far as EU goes, the capabilities are mostly there. Skilled workforce? Check. Money? This is a rich continent.

What's missing is the guts to say "hey, let's dump €100B into this & make ourselves some laptop & server CPUs!".

But now the important thing: several of such initiatives are starting to bear fruit, and b) confidence that EU can do such things, is growing.

As for bureaucracy / red tape... sigh... (won't be fixed any time soon)

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hdaz0017 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The World's Most Important Machine ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiUHjLxm3V0

	▲	joe_mamba 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Most important machine ... built on US IP, subject to US export restrictions, used to manufacture high value US IP, in factories outside the EU, so profits of those chips goes to US. A point I have addressed over two times already. Also ASML even threatened to leave the NL if the Dutch government doesn't do what they want on taxes and labor policies. So having only a single card to play that EU can loose at any time, it's not putting EU tech sovereignty argument in a good light. The "wahabout ASML" that keeps being spammed by people here, isn't proof of EU compute and AI sovereignty. It's the exception which is why it's the only thing people can mention on EU tech and they DDoS you with it as if that changes anything. Are people here that petty that they can't stay on topic and argue in good faith and instead need to hijack your argument to go on offtopic whataboutism for a cheap gotcha spamming "whatabout ASML" on unrelated arguments?

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fer 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>ASML only makes the shovel making machines

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dwa3592 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>>Yeah but Europe doesn't build any computer hardware,

Well, then this is will be a good start.

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joe_mamba 6 hours ago | parent [-]

EU bureaucrats are too busy trying to keep the welfare/pension system from collapsing, defeating Russia, supporting Ukraine, managing the fossil fuels energy shortages, figuring out how to nerf Chinese EVs while supporting domestic car companies, and restricting social media free speech to make sure the "far right" don't win elections.

So of course, semiconductor manufacturing sovereignty is very low on their priority list.

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Muromec 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's what bureaucrats are supposed to be doing BTW.

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ks2048 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How many in that list of things is the US also doing?

	▲	nazgul17 3 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		The US is a single country. Russia is not on the US' doorstep. The US has its own oil. The US prints the world reserve currency.
	▲	joe_mamba 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Different scale for those problems. Way different scale. US is monetary rich, oil rich, energy rich, manufacturing rich, and doesn't suffer from russian aggression at its borders. US is so bored from how rich and problem free it is compared to Europe, that it can afford to keep starting foreign wars as if nothing ever happens. Also back on the topic, the US managed to bring TSMC to open a cutting edge fab in the US and has already been operational for a while. Which already puts it way ahead of the EU on this front as well. The thing is, US is much better on actually making things happen when push comes to shove. It saw it's deficient and vulnerable on domestic semiconductor manufacturing, it then made it happen with TSMC. It's doing the same with domestic ship building with Korean partners. US might be slow moving, but somehow EU is even way slower at realizing and addressing its vulnerabilities, only waking up when it's far too late, causing it to pay a much more painful price for sleeping at the wheel (Russian invaded Ukraine in 2014 BTW, not in 2022, and they were building another gas pipeline with them), and when this type of own-goaling keeps repeating enough times you see the correlation with EU's decline as their economic rivals keep biting more and more market share from their industries as they sleep on critical changes and developments.