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fasterik 6 hours ago

I love computers too, but it doesn't resonate with me when people call AI "snake oil." The comparison suggests that the thing doesn't do what it's marketed to do. AI does more or less what it's marketed to do, sometimes badly.

I still write code by hand. But LLMs have been a legitimately useful tool when I've wanted to dig into a new field like computer graphics, theoretical physics, or numerical analysis. Or even just asking the LLM to write a piece of code and learning from its output. I think it makes me a better programmer because I can bootstrap the knowledge needed for a new project much faster and spend more time programming.

drchickensalad 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The comparison suggests that the thing doesn't do what it's marketed to do

In my opinion you should interpret the usage of "AI" here to mean "the entire business/management/financial/bubble ecosystem surrounding LLMs". The snake oil is much more how LLMs are being weaponized and utilized rather than a specific technical assessment (although that often is an issue too)

fasterik 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My prediction is that it will go the same way as the dot com bubble. The hypesters and fraudsters will eventually collide with objective reality, but the technology will persist and society at large will benefit from the infrastructure and the increased access to knowledge.

Shellban 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Assuming that we recover from the damage being done now. As one example, a friend of mine has remarked that large corporations will benefit from the current AI-induced reality of no one being able to afford their own hardware, and keep prices that way to enforce a renters model on computers.

protocolture 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>large corporations will benefit from the current AI-induced reality of no one being able to afford their own hardware, and keep prices that way to enforce a renters model on computers.

Depends how long the RAM correction takes. It is interesting how RAM prices have stifled the creation of cheap laptops capable of running big models. But at the same time, this seems like a second order effect and not the intention.

api 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It’s a demand spike.

thewebguyd 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's my fear, and unfortunately I think its likely to happen. I feel like we will settle down a little bit, but into a new higher "normal" baseline that still largely makes it unaffordable for most.

There's also still the risk of the creation of a new economic underclass, if both a) hardware remains too expensive for local inference and b) subscription or pay-per-token based inference also remains expensive or increases in price, then individuals will largely be locked out of the benefits that having access to AI could bring, leaving it purely in the hands of larger companies. People will only get to use and experience these tools through their employer, for the benefit of their employer.

echelon 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> As one example, a friend of mine has remarked that large corporations will benefit from the current AI-induced reality of no one being able to afford their own hardware, and keep prices that way to enforce a renters model on computers.

Choose one:

- You spend 30 hours writing a program to manage data for your hobby. You write it on your personal computer.

- You spend one hour generating a program to manage data for your hobby. You have to lease an H200 behind an API to do it.

Which one will you choose?

I know which one I'm choosing.

anon7725 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I choose A.

I know that many others choose A as well.

A wonderful service known as the web has connected people who choose A with others who choose A and of course with a great many who don’t need to make a choice and benefit from the work of others.

I mourn a world in which few will choose A, because for many to choose B seems to lock us all, tragedy of the commons style, into a worse world.

echelon 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't have time for that.

I swear the anti-AI crowd would all be picking to die if you each had a choice between immortality and living to 85.

This all feels so damned performative. These are irrational decisions.

AI is better at this than you. You just won't admit it. And it's going to get 10,000x better than you in just a short while.

Programming computers is a fad. It's an anachronistic relic.

None of you is writing punch card programs.

None of you are building vaccum tube logic.

None of the things we build today are going to last. Your programs will be meaningless in a hundred years. Probably closer to ten years.

Programs and code and programming languages are as ephemeral as social media.

Get over it. It's not that important.

girvo 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is so needlessly combative and performative, which is especially hilarious as you claim the others are the ones being so.

> AI is better at this than you. You just won't admit it. And it's going to get 10,000x better than you in just a short while.

Where is the 10x (not even 10,000x) revenue? No companies other than those selling the AI itself are seeing it.

II2II 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I swear the anti-AI crowd would all be picking to die if you each had a choice between immortality and living to 85.

It really depends on the cost of immortality. At the very least, it would have a psychological impact that some people may feel is undesirable.

> None of you is writing punch card programs.

> None of you are building vaccum tube logic.

Perhaps none of us, but some people certainly do. We are intellectual creatures. Some of us do things out of pure curiosity. Can we create multinational corporations out of it? Almost certainly not. Can we create businesses out of it? People do so all of the time. There is a market for produce from small farms, hand crafts, heck, even vintage computing.

> None of the things we build today are going to last. Your programs will be meaningless in a hundred years. Probably closer to ten years.

Try telling that to people who are trying to retire legacy systems. Sure, most of them have been modernized. Perhaps they have even been modernized to the point where none of the original code exists. Yet the core ideas still exist since it turns out to be incredibly hard to discard things.

The old ways of writing software will continue, even if they are nowhere near as popular. Call that irrational if you want. I call it human.

Jtsummers 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> None of the things we build today are going to last.

Exactly, so why do you care how some people build things? It's not that important.

overgard 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> AI is better at this than you. You just won't admit it. And it's going to get 10,000x better than you in just a short while.

It's just not though. Plagiarizing some shit it stole off github does not make it intelligent.

Edit: just because it's amusing, here's something I'm literally running into right now with Opus 4.8 on "Max" settings being dumb. I asked it to add some C++ code to an existing C++ project for Unreal Engine. It did half the work, then balked, because "it doesn't have a way to compile C++". I just had to tell it "yes, actually, you just need to run the fricking extremely-standard-already-generated-build-script." If I had a novel build system it'd be one thing, but it already knows I'm working on an Unreal Engine project and that the build is completely standard and it still couldn't piece together that it could just run the compiler.

I would not employ a C++ developer that could not figure out how to invoke the compiler.

anon7725 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> AI is better at this than you.

Maybe so, but I am better at this when I engage with AI in a controlled manner.

javascriptfan69 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What if they just like writing code?

sublinear 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Get over it. It's not that important.

I don't think you understand what code is. What it does is far less important than how it does it.

Software is bureaucracy and always has been. The discipline is just finally maturing into this role like so many other careers have.

sdenton4 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Of course, you can use Option B to write the program, and then run it on your own machine...

bigstrat2003 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Option A is fun, whereas option B is miserable. Option A is also cheaper. It's a pretty clear win for option A here.

gyomu 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> society at large will benefit from the infrastructure

Data centers as infrastructure are very different from DSL rollout though. Much, much more expensive to maintain, with a much much shorter timespan.

If the bubble pops and data centers get shut down because there’s no one to pay the bills, there won’t be much left 5-10 years later in terms of infrastructure.

m0llusk 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Maybe we could repurpose old processors to power toaster ovens.

bigbuppo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean, a 125kW server stuffed into 5U will definitely work nicely for toast.

api 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The same thing happened around PCs, gaming, the Internet, the web, and cryptocurrency. It's a hit driven industry that loves hype.

AgentME 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

LLMs remind me of being a kid again being in wonder of all the possible things that could be done with a computer that haven't been figured out yet. The internet was relatively new and everyone had their own ideas of what that would enable. Fast forward to a few years ago and it was easy to believe that a lot of the low-hanging fruit of things an individual could do with the internet, apps, 3d graphics, etc, had been decently picked over and that things were stabilizing. Now I have no idea again what computing will look like in 5 years and it's exciting.

ux266478 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The fats in Chinese Water Snakes are rich in omega 3s and do have genuine benefits to consumption. The problem with snake oil wasn't that it was useless. The problem was with hucksters selling it as a cure-all for everything from cancer to syphilis. The metaphor is pretty apt IMO.

tptacek 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, I got that Google summary too. But "snake oil" patent medicine didn't contain snake oil.

"Snake oil" refers to something sold as a medicament that has no beneficial effect.

tcmart14 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly what I was thinking. It's not that snake oil sales people sold totally useless stuff, its just that the stuff they sold did not deliver the value that was promised. Another example that is still going on today. There is a community of people that swear the ingesting silver prevents all kinds of things, even so far as a cure for cancer. It's snake oil, but it doesn't mean it doesn't have any medicinal purposes. Silver does have anti-microbial properties and can be used topically to manage infections.

zem 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

the problem, ironically, is that hucksters were selling other oils as "snake oil" when they didn't have the same omega 3s. the bad reputation was due to fake snake oil.

mid-kid 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The snake oil is how the people at the top scream "in x years we won't need programmers" and end up proving themselves wrong time and time again. It's a real technology and it can do a lot, but it's being sold like snake oil while we're still figuring out what it's actually useful for and how to leverage it properly.

tptacek 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Snake oil implies that it does nothing, not that it doesn't do everything it's boosters claim it does. Snake oils were medicines sold as cure-alls with no active ingredients.

girvo 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I wonder what the better pithy phrase would be then for "thing that is obviously useful, but is being hyped beyond it's (current) ability by those with a vested interest in doing so"

tptacek 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You could reasonably call it "overhyped". People will disagree with you, but that's fine; you won't be making a falsifiable claim.

akerl_ 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That seems pretty par for the course for every major advancement in technology. So maybe just “capitalism”?

It’s hard for me to think of any piece of new tech that hasn’t been over hyped by the people selling it.

girvo 4 hours ago | parent [-]

For sure. I'd argue this cycle is operating at a different scale though

lostmsu 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> "in x years we won't need programmers" and end up proving themselves wrong time and time again

This is how it looks in your head, maybe. But in reality since Sonnet 3.5 - when the whole "no need programmers" started - no "years" have passed. Sonnet 3.5 came out on June 20, 2024. We are still 5 days away from the lowest possible "years". So even if you quoted them literally, they could not have possibly proved themselves wrong yet even once, let alone "time and time again".

spamizbad 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would say the claim that AI is going to replace most white collar work a very snake-oily term. The technology behind it however is very compelling and interesting.

tptacek 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't know enough about most white collar work to make any predictions. But I know a lot about software development and information technology because I've been a professional since 1995. The claims being made about AI's impact on that profession do not seem at all snake-oily to me.

tines 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I think it makes me a better programmer because I can bootstrap the knowledge needed for a new project much faster

faster != better

JCTheDenthog 3 hours ago | parent [-]

For me, the painful banging my head against the wall to figure something out is usually the most rewarding sort of learning experience.

specproc 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AI is snake oil. It sells you a slot machine in the guise of a colleague.

Oh, not using it right? Not the right model? Insert coin to continue.

Snake oil, total snake oil.

tptacek 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This doesn't even make sense. Maybe if you fleshed it out?

specproc 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Snake oil is something not medicine sold as medicine.

AI is something not a colleague (a slot machine), sold as a colleague.

tptacek 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Right, that's what you already said. What I don't understand is the "slot machine" analogy you're making. In what sense is AI a "slot machine"? Are you talking about the stocks of AI companies?

specproc 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Variable intermittent reward. Pull the lever, get something nice or something bad. I've had far too much bad today and I'm furious.

fragmede 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's a oversimplified characterization of LLMs as a slot machine. You put in some money, and pull the lever/submit a prompt, and maybe you get a jackpot/working code. It's typically used by morons who think they're smart for repeating it, and that they aren't the stochastic parrots in the room.

specproc 4 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

tptacek 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Spoken like someone who's never lost a day fighting the borrow checker.

holoduke 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I just reversed engineered large parts of my 2011 car odb comms. Was able to hook a stm32 board to the car communication and have full control over a lot of stuff so that I can build my own instrument cluster from a lcd screen. It literally took me one evening to get the first proof of concept working. I never touched stm32 stuff before.

specproc 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Good for you, son. I've just spent the whole f*king day screaming at an agent on a deadline.

rolandog 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This right here. People simp for LLM companies as if their experience of using the out-of-pocket top-of-the-line "team of PhD's" paid models will be what is deployed when trying to contact your bank, insurance, etc. No,... once tech companies stop playing the "no/some revenue until we own the world" VC game, we'll all be stuck trying to talk to GlueSnifferGPT when reporting an emergency.

bigstrat2003 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I love computers too, but it doesn't resonate with me when people call AI "snake oil." The comparison suggests that the thing doesn't do what it's marketed to do.

Well yeah, because it doesn't. AI is being claimed to be a magical genius intelligence which will solve everything forever, but in reality LLMs are still idiots you can't trust to not screw up without a tight leash. They can't even do the one thing they are supposed to be good at (programming) well, despite all the effort which has been focused on trying to make them good at it. They don't remotely do what they are marketed to do, not even close!

godelski 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

  > The comparison suggests that the thing doesn't do what it's marketed to do.
Because it doesn't.

What AI is being sold as is incredibly different than what it actually does. I love AI. I spent years in grad school researching it because I loved it so much (it was never about the money to me). But what it is and what it can do is so different from what it is being sold as.

Snake Oil is an apt comparison because it is being sold as a cure-all. Medical problems? AI. Financial problems? AI. Scientific research? AI. <Insert problem>: AI... It isn't that ML[0] can't help with these problems (it can!), it is that "AI" is being sold as a solution to these problems. As if humans will be obsolete in 6months[1].

LLMs are a fantastic example. We (lossy) compressed the entire internet and build a human language interface into it. That's some real Sci-Fi shit right there. That's an incredible achievement with a lot of utility! But how is it sold? If you call it what it is people will act like you're diminishing its status. We've exaggerated the accomplishments so far out of proportion that we can't even recognize big of an advancement that these machines actually were. LLMs were a huge step forward, but even a giant is small when you compare it to a titan.

So yeah, I do think it is being sold as Snake Oil. And that's been my fear for quite some time (you can dig up my history if you're that passionate). But that's also what we've done with every major tech recently. Hell, even cryptocurrency has real value. The thing that killed it was all the hype built around it when the tech was just in its infancy. Do we really want to do the same thing to AI? It certainly has more utility to it than cryptocurrencies. But it doesn't matter how good the actual product is if people are sold on something else. What matters is how the actual product matches to peoples' expectations. There is such a thing as "overselling", and we're certainly doing that as a community. I know it is an exciting field and there's lots of exciting technology, but we can't promise the moon if we can't deliver.

  [0] It wasn't long ago that "AI" was a red flag and "ML" was seen as less likely to be bullshit. 
  [1] I'm still waiting on my self-driving car...
bigbuppo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

And why was AI seen as a red flag?

overgard 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Isn't coding solved and we should all be out of a job by now according to Dario? Or what about AI 2027 -- we're only 6 months away! Time to build a bunker!! LLMs themselves aren't snake oil, they're just a useful technology, but all the marketing around them is FUD mixed with hype mixed with the most irritating people on the planet (the ones that aren't bots at least).

lostmsu 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Isn't coding solved and we should all be out of a job by now according to Dario?

You sound like you have a quote in mind.

echelon 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is less an anti-AI post and more a post against the greed of the industry:

> But things feel different now. I can relate to what Chris Person said when he expressed his frustrations about how these slick conmen are using the technology I adore as tools for exploitation and disempowerment. The Internet, built by idealists on a foundation of openness and community, has become a mire of dark patterns and gardens with ever thicker walls, desperate to keep people within an ecosystem where their attention is the prized commodity. I’ve witnessed a nerdy space full of nerds be invaded by marketers, callous capitalists, and “brogrammers”—exaggerating the worst, most toxic, aspects of geek culture in their pursuit of money and power. I’ve poured hundreds of hours of work into open source projects only to have it all be scraped into a plagiarism machine and then aggressively sold back to me. It feels that the hope I had for the future technology could give us, the naïve and starry-eyed fantasies I fostered in my youth, has been eroded when faced with a reality where the thing I love can make a lot of money for people who don’t care for any of it.

You can simultaneously believe that AI is really cool and also that also a lot of companies are degrading the internet, society, and private ownership at large.