| ▲ | azalemeth 7 hours ago |
| Academia is the most relevant, toxic example that I can think of. Be horrible to others on a short term contract (grad students, postdocs) and break them whilst extracting maximum value -- get more papers, more grants written -- more money -- success. Be nice, think about hard problems for a long period of time, only speak up when you have something positive to contribute -- be labelled an underperforming academic and managed into obscurity. A great example of this is Peter Higgs, who famously said that he'd be unemployed pretty quickly in the academia of 2013. [0] [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/06/peter-higgs-... |
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| ▲ | vidarh 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The challenge is to distinguish "think about hard problems for a long period of time, only speak up when you have something positive to contribute" from slacking. I am not arguing for bullshit metrics - I personally love working on things that may or may not pay off on a 10 year+ horizon and wish I could do more of that. But at the same time I've seen enough people coast to accept that most places that either isn't - or won't be seen as - tenable, at least not until/unless you've established a stellar track-record first. |
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| ▲ | altairprime 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A system that can’t tolerate occasional coasting is a system that can’t tolerate creative bursts. The trick is detecting “I secretly lost hope but my stream of income is very comfortable” when paying a costly salary; which would be mitigated somewhat by switching the tenure benefit of either pay enough to afford, or outright gift of, a single-family home (looks pointedly at Stanford) to a variation of residence halls, where the salary gift can be much less in exchange for benefits due creativity: reserved whiteboards, option for neighboring private rooms (table/bed/bath/shower) and research office, a couple of quiet floors, 120/240 and ether/fiber in every room, presentation rooms with ‘lives next door’ IT support, etc. Hell, I’d take that IT job. Keeping projectors working for a bunch of impatient creative types in exchange for getting to listen in on their presentations and earn their confidence enough to discuss their research as an interested peer while I repair their computers? Eating good food in a mess hall as I listen to quantum physics in one ear and mathematical networks in the other?! Onto the dream jobs list it goes, impossible as it might be in today’s academia. | | |
| ▲ | vidarh 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Agree with this. Occasional coasting is great. Sometimes you need to recharge. Sometimes it's when you'll get inspiration or find time to do that experiment that feels like leisure because it's fun but ends up paying off massively. Slack is important. But so much so that you become a magnet for people who intend to do nothing, or somewhere where people who have fallen into doing nothing aren't noticed and dig their heels in and never leave quickly becomes a problem... | | |
| ▲ | zozbot234 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Academia has tenure which basically allows the most capable researchers to "coast" as long as they have previously proven their skills via their tenure-track work. It seems to work quite well. |
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| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Way back MBARI was looking for a role that in part included keeping the servers on their research ships going. That was my dream job. Only interview I completely failed because I wanted it so much and froze. Imagine eating Phils when it was still a hole in the wall, chilling in Moss Landing. Decades later I still daydream about that job. | | |
| ▲ | altairprime 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Their open house is next month; if you stopped by in the morning and asked to learn more about their vessel IT and told your story, odds are they’ll have someone with that role ashore from last month’s expedition that could chat with you for an afternoon. They exist because of dedication and are likely to respect it in kind. At worst you’d get to visit MBARI with seasoning, at best live another life-sheaf vicariously through someone else’s experiences :D |
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| ▲ | hattmall 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We shouldn't really seek to punish "slacking off" though. Because when the opposite of valuable contribution isn't slacking off it becomes unintentional sabotage. It's a lot less noticeable in jobs that don't have immediate consequences for poor performance, but it really stands out in jobs where it immediately matters like construction. In a lot of cases everyone is getting paid the same but talent stands out and some people work 5x faster, but at thing they are good at. If you aren't the guy that lays 10x tiles perfectly flat and straight per minute then just bring the materials, set out a couple tiles and wait around. You will literally see this play out on most construction projects as it looks like 10 people are standing around while 1 person works, but that's because everyone tends to recognize that it's better to do what you are best at or just don't do anything. And the foreman will tell you that too, when all the dirt has to be moved, the shovel guys are just as important as the guy that can separate two nickels with an excavator. | | |
| ▲ | vidarh 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I agree we shouldn't, but until we're at a post scarcity point, we kinda have to at least keep it somewhat in check. But if you're standing around because there isn't anything positive you can contribute at a given moment, that isn't "slacking off" to me. That isn't the problem. The problem is if you create situations that effectively encouraged people to seek them out because slacking off won't get noticed. | |
| ▲ | 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | gnopgnip 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you don’t “punish” slacking off your institution falls behind even if there is no sabotage | | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If an IT department doesn't appear to be slacking off it is doing a poor job. It's much better to pay someone who prevents fires and sits around appearing to not be doing much, than a team constantly running around putting out fires that are costing a tone via lost productivity but look really busy. I imagine scientific inspiration/insight comes in flashes. The ability to be honest in the job/what is going on/realistic is going to get much better results long term with better mental health, and trust making better internal dynamics. | | |
| ▲ | fragmede an hour ago | parent [-] | | We pay firemen to just sit in a house and hang out! I saw them the other day, just going for ice cream! How do we apply the perception that that's a desirable state elsewhere? |
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| ▲ | zemvpferreira 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the end we have to face that systems have failed to replace competent managers. If there isn't a chain of accountability starting at the top that can manage people without extensive justification in metrics and is properly incentivised to keep the organisation healthy, whatever we are left with will be gamed to the detriment of everyone. | |
| ▲ | koverstreet 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The certainly don't teach you that in business school :) |
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| ▲ | nradov 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And academia will become even more toxic as opportunities shrink along with declining student enrollment. A lot of the third-tier colleges will close entirely. |
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| ▲ | pc86 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | This seems good, honestly. A degree from a third-tier college doesn't do anyone any good except the administrators at that college. | | |
| ▲ | lacunary 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I feel great about my degree from my third tier college. I learned a lot I didn't expect to, got into a top tier grad school afterwards, and came away with no debt. Maybe me and the millions of other third tier college students are too dumb to know what's good for us, though. | |
| ▲ | delusional 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have been to a "third tier" college, but do you learn nothing there? |
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| ▲ | initramfs 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And the Xerox Alto had a budget for 10 years. Unthinkable in today's "What did you publish?? Publish or it didn't happen. No R01 for you! (2 year funding)" culture. |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Why is publishing papers an unreasonable expectation? Isn't that the primary mechanism for exchanging knowledge and driving discussion among academics? If not, what should replace it? | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m not in academia so I might not know what I’m talking about at all, but: “Number if papers published” smells an awful lot like bs industry metrics like number of lines of code written, number of features shipped, number of bugs fixed and so on, that the industry wrongly rewards. I don’t know what you’d replace “number of papers” with, but it probably should not be so easily quantifiable and gameable. | |
| ▲ | initramfs 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have published all my papers since 2023 on the web. None were peer reviewed, but on pre-print servers. Einstein's 1905 papers were published without peer review. I still get spam emails asking me to pay for papers I've already uploaded to public servers years ago. Here's one from this morning- already deleted by Google's spam filter:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h8YVu5-DEx-1mOibiLpfJHrErvX... The actual article was intended as a joke: https://vixra.org/abs/2405.0051 yet fraudulent publishers continue to treat it as a serious article. It would be nice if publishing a fake paper every now and then could serve like a sinkhole for scammers, but I would be too optimistic or naive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_sinkhole |
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| ▲ | willXare 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Academia: where thinking quietly for ten years is indistinguishable from doing nothing, until it wins a Nobel. |
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| ▲ | snek_case 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | To get tenure in STEM, you need to publish 1 to 3 papers a year. If you only publish once per year, you'd be on the low end, so you always have to think about your next paper. You always have to try to work on something that would be publishable within the next 6 months to a year, but preferably within 6 months. | |
| ▲ | red-iron-pine an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | presumably in between thinking they're teaching classes, advising grad students, and publishing something -- because it's "publish or perish" |
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| ▲ | TremendousJudge 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Great little article. 12 years later, he is still right on every count. Who would have thought that Peter Higgs was a very clever, clear-thinking man |
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| ▲ | nathan_compton 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Be nice, think about hard problems for a long period of time, only speak up when you have something positive to contribute -- be labelled an underperforming academic and managed into obscurity. I'm in academy and I'm mostly quiet and seek to contribute honestly and I've been managed into obscurity but I'm also quite happy, pay the bills, and more or less enjoy the work. If you want glory you have to deal with bullshit. If you don't want glory, life provides many opportunities to live a modest but productive life. |
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| ▲ | afavour 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's the money side that applies pressure there. It's great that you're able to make enough money but a lot of people who aspire to the quiet academic life are stuck in the lower tiers making a pittance. | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is because there are far more people wanting a quiet academic life than there are jobs providing a quiet academic life with a livable wage. And this is likely to become even more out of balance as college enrollment declines and there are smaller and smaller cohorts of freshmen as fertility continues to decline. | |
| ▲ | nathan_compton 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are pittances and then there are pittances. I make a bit more than a typical adjunct or whatever because I have very specialized skills, but its ok not to make a lot of money. I mean this is a place where the founder just wrote a blog post about being a billionaire. I'll never be a billionaire, thats for sure. But I genuinely believe that pursuing that goal is vanity, bad for people mentally and "spiritually" and bad for the world. |
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| ▲ | rdbl27 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Over 99% of students who attempt your "mostly quiet" strategy are managed entirely out of academia long before tenure. You won the lottery, which is great for you, but it's not a strategy to promote to others as life advice. | | |
| ▲ | nathan_compton 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not tenured and I doubt I will ever be and I'm not even interested in it. I have a support role in academia, get to teach, and am pretty well compensated (though I make 2-3x less than I could in the private sector. But its enough.) |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's a lot of wisdom here. |
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| ▲ | zozbot234 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | maxbond 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | All of the low hanging fruit that could be discovered by self-funded gentlemen scientists has been picked. That doesn't scale to a supercollider or a large RCT. Funding at the whims of rich benefactors is very susceptible to petty politics. Politics is irreducible from human affairs, privatization doesn't eliminate politics. It relocates it to a different set of actors. That could be a better set, but when it is it's because it's a more local and hands on group of people, not because those people happen not to work for the government. Governments are awkward because they are deep bureaucracies, and deep bureaucracies divorce the decision makers from the impact of their decisions. Weaker feedback leads to worse decision making. Not because there is a magic property of government that makes it uniquely bad. Large corporations, universities, and other deep non-governmental bureaucracies have similar pathologies. That's something of an exaggeration, they are empowered to do violence and collect taxes and other things that are more problematic when abused, but still, privatization isn't a silver bullet. | | |
| ▲ | BoxOfRain 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Politics is irreducible from human affairs, privatization doesn't eliminate politics. It relocates it to a different set of actors. We ideologically privatised the water sector into regional private monopolies in the UK, and anyone who's had experience with the water monopolies knows this is the truth. | | |
| ▲ | FractalParadigm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't know, maybe it's the way I was raised, but to me it just seems like common sense that a privatised monopoly is going to be worse in literally every metric imaginable, than maintaining public ownership - not just with regards to water and/or similar critial-to-life infrastructure, but everything in general. Highway 407, the most expensive toll road on the planet, is a prime reminder to Ontarians why privatisation is objectively bad. | |
| ▲ | Avicebron 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We in the US did the same with PG&E (gas and electric utility) out in California. It goes as well as expected, which is to say poorly. | | |
| ▲ | cameronbrown 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | In the UK, gas & electric is also privatised and in a poor state too :) Almost like private investment generates return for investors, not customers. Sometimes those align. |
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| ▲ | buckle8017 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can't really compare a natural monopoly (water utility) that should be the government with something that isn't a natural monopoly (research). | | |
| ▲ | BoxOfRain 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think you can in the limited sense it supports the idea privatisation doesn't remove politics, just relocates it and often into a less democratically accountable place to boot. Whenever a person or group has power over another person or group, politics necessarily exists. I don't think this fact can be avoided, as much as advocates of privatisation often argue that it can be. |
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| ▲ | the__alchemist 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I am suspicious of this fruit-altitude analogy due to its long history of use, and 100% failure rate. | | |
| ▲ | maxbond 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | That sounds like excellent grounds for suspicious but I don't know what you mean. We were talking about Peter Higgs for example. I don't think Peter Higgs could have self funded CERN. I don't think a thousand Peter Higgs could have. Nation state level resources are the table stakes for fundamental research into particle physics, because everything beneath that barrier has already been explored - I don't think that's really controversial. It's definitely an exaggeration to say that all science on a shoestring budget has already been accomplished, there are new frontiers out there. But once they start gaining momentum, the low hanging fruit will be consumed in due course. Methodically searching a domain works and works from the most tractable end up until it is at the frontier of what is tractable given our current technology/constraints. I don't really understand the alternative hypothesis. That there's an infinite amount of low hanging fruit? What's this 100% failure rate? | | |
| ▲ | the__alchemist 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The points your making make sense. I am thinking of it like this: Say there is an elegant argument. It checks out at first. Then you do the unit analysis, and find out the units don't match! But you still don't find the flaw in the original argument; maybe because it's suble in some way. That's where I am: Very smart people have been writing things in the vein of your post here for millenia, and it always seems convincing in the light of contemporary knowledge! Then is proven to be incorrect by major advancements. Perhaps this will help: Indeed high energy physics is a very high budget project! But there are many areas of the natural sciences which are not high energy physics. This area has been a big deal over the past few decades, and I wonder if it's an over-commitment at the expense of other areas. You can do many molecular bio lab techniques with a budget of $10k in equipment and reagents, for example. (If used/entry level) I believe there are also many areas in science, chem, and bio which can be done on a theoretical level, or with computers, etc. Another angle: We are in the earliest steps of neuroscience. Many biology tools and techniques are borrowing something serendipitous we found in nature (CRISPR, TAQ polymerase etc, leveraging living cells' equipment to produce proteins etc). We have no concept of a general chemistry simulator. Molecular dynamics simulations can only work on very small systems for very small timescales, and are based on many approximations, and assumptions which provincialize them. We are very likely missing a big picture of the lower levels of GR/QM. It is very hard for me to agree with "Yep we're good; nothing left to discover here without really expensive equipment!". | | |
| ▲ | maxbond 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I agree. It works as an argument for why science can't rely on wealthy benefactors, not for understanding what is possible with a given budget at a given point in time. And biology and chemistry are good counterexamples where capabilities are getting smaller and cheaper. I would point out that that's on the back of a huge amount of research funded by grants and performed in national labs, but it doesn't impact your argument. |
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| ▲ | parineum 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I don't think Peter Higgs could have self funded CERN. I don't think a thousand Peter Higgs could have Higgs didn't use the LHC to write the paper which won him the Nobel prize. Additionally, I think it's worth considering that the availability of the money that built the LHC alleviates the drive to find different solutions. As they say, "necessity is the mother of invention." I frequently think of the great pyramids and people being baffled on how they would build something of that scale without modern equipment. It's hard to get your mind to come up with novel ideas when it already knows that you'd use cranes, trucks, etc. to do it today. |
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| ▲ | throw0101c 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Whenever something gets subsidized by the government it inevitably becomes dominated by exploitive petty politics. When younger I've had job in grocery stores and saw petty politics. There's nothing particular to being subsidized or not: politics is something humans do, and the pettiness is simply a reflection of the people involved. | |
| ▲ | nyeah 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Have you worked in a corporation? How sane was that corporation? Did it seem to even value its own survival? (Not corporations in general. In general they seem great. Just curious about the ones you actually did time in.) | |
| ▲ | ACCount37 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Whenever something gets subsidized, it inevitably becomes dominated by exploitive petty politics." I think it's just limited resources + the single most natural way for humans to compete for limited resources. This isn't actually an inevitable outcome - just the most likely one. The "self-funding" regime requires people who are both rich enough to afford to fund science and sharp and driven enough to advance science to exist. That's a high bar. And while there is some correlation between intelligence and wealth, the tails come apart hard. People driven to pursuit wealth above all may not be driven to pursue scientific discovery. We have plenty of billionaires, and preciously few of them actively pursue pushing the frontiers of science and technology. Even by funding the endeavors - let alone by being in the trenches themselves. | |
| ▲ | MyHonestOpinon 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It has crossed my mind that being a scientist is for people who are already financial independent. Same as being an artist. For the rest of us, we need focus on careers where we can make a living. Of course, we can still do science and art as hobbies, but it is rather risky pretending to make a living from it. | |
| ▲ | jadar 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The stakes are never higher when the stakes are so low. | |
| ▲ | locknitpicker 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Whenever something gets subsidized by the government it inevitably becomes dominated by exploitive petty politics. Your US-blend of anti-state brainwashing is showing. There is nothing inherently different in the for-profit status of an organization that prevents the occurrence of "exploitive petty politics". You see those from any organization from homeowners organization to full blown FANGs. I mean, have you ever paid attention to the crap being pushed by the likes of Tesla/SpaceX/Twitter? | | |
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