Thank you, I never thought debating economics on hacker news of all places would be the equivalent of discussing orbital mechanics with flat earthers.

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nfw2 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's curious to me that the message board run by arguably the most significant capitalist group in tech seems to hate capitalism and tech

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CPLX 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I have a degree in economics and wrote my economics thesis on the application of complex adaptive systems to economic theory. I'm still quite attached to economic analysis, it's even the story behind my user name.

You can be assured I understand the concept of wealth creation.

But the fact that there are, in fact, other people involved here is hilariously hand-woven away here:

> He paid other people to help him and they were happy with that exchange. The government also helped them and they were happy with that exchange.

OK I will bite. Who determines what "the government" thinks in a democracy? The general public, right? Does the general public seem happy?

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pclowes 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Is the general public happy? Who cares, it is not the job of the government to ensure happiness but rights.

Regardless:

1. Starlink is amazing (literally never want to fly on an airplane without it ever again, wish I could search for flights based on having it)

2. Starship is amazing. (ensures American space dominance for generations)

3. Being able to manufacture hard things at scale and employ hundreds of thousands of people and making thousands of millionaires is amazing for our economy!!

Unless they are fools, the general public should be stoked AF.

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CPLX 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, if you're the kind of person who just kind of thinks that Elon's stuff is really really cool, then that's fine. I have no reason to think your point of view is insincere. I have quite a few good friends who share it with you. And I strongly believe in your right to express it and to vote based on it.

With that said, it might also be instructive to realize that most people in the country are coming to fucking hate this bullshit. They're exhausted at the fact that our economy is now dominated by financial extraction and that nearly all of the resources of the country are accruing to a tiny group of people.

They're increasingly unable to afford housing in the places that they grew up. They're unable to raise their families. They're unable to have any sense of security or continuity in their life whatsoever.

And the best part is that they have to listen to people like you calling them fools for wanting to live healthy and productive lives, for valuing human connection over technology, for value and tradition over innovation. They get to be told that they're lazy for not having built some sort of financial engineering machine to extract money like you guys did.

The problem for you guys is there's a lot more of them than there are of you. At a certain point, they will kill you and eat you for your protein content.

It's happened quite a few times in history before. So good luck with all that.

If you want a tip, you might want to think about how we can harness the power of all this incredible innovation and still get exciting new toys and quality of life improvements while also having a society that's more balanced, fair, and healthy for all the participants, including the ones who aren't as smart or weren't born into money.

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pclowes 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don’t like it because it’s Elon (I literally have been an active litigation with him for years lol)

I like it because it’s useful.

Life is objectively much better today for the average person than it has been for 99% of humans in 99% of history.

(“They will kill us and eat us for our protein” makes you sound totally insane and in this ludicrous scenario I think the rich peoples army of drones/optimus robots would simply say “no”.)

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CPLX 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Life is objectively much better today for the average person than it has been for 99% of humans in 99% of history.

Life is objectively much worse for many communities in this country.

Get on a plane to Detroit if you don't understand what I'm talking about.

We allowed one of the most powerful and sophisticated industrial economies in history to be taken over by bankers who shipped the jobs to a different country, bought off our politicians, and spend most of their time coming up with new ways to use monopolies to overcharge us for shit.

You can talk about 99% of history all day long, but if you're standing in a town and the stores are boarded up and the jobs are all gone, or alternately, if you have to move further and further away from the community that you were born in because you can't afford to live in the same neighborhood that your parents raised you in, then you're not interested in statistics or people telling you it's the best we've ever had it.

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pclowes an hour ago | parent [-]

What?!

Real median household income is the highest its ever been and risen steadily for 50 years: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

Unemployment rate is 4.3%

Also, I go to Detroit about once a year. Every year it is more vibrant than the lows of 2010. Real estate prices support this argument. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ATNHPIUS19804Q

Not saying some people somewhere don’t have it rough but overall we are doing better than we ever have.

	▲	CPLX an hour ago \| parent [-]
		> overall we are doing better than we ever have Yep, this is it. This is the fundamental disconnect in our culture. Who do you mean by "we"? And why do you think that Detroit being increasingly unaffordable is a sign that things are going well for working people? Huh? For a large group of working people you are definitely wrong about this, and the signs of the crisis are literally everywhere in our politics right now, but if you can't see it, I can't make you see it. Perhaps file this conversation in the back of your head as you go about your business in the coming weeks and months, and see if you can see any examples of what I'm talking about after all. Instead of taking me at my word, just consider it as a hypothesis that you'll objectively try to verify or disprove. My hypothesis is this: for regular working people who don't have access to excess capital by virtue of birth, connections, or high levels of education, life has increasingly become a living hellscape of being ripped off and exploited in every aspect of their economic life. They are more precarious and less able to control their own destiny than at any time in the modern post-war era, and they are increasingly mad about it.