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monkpit 5 hours ago

You should really examine your situation and beliefs if you think this isn’t a privileged position to be in.

reg_dunlop 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We live in an ecosystem where we (engineers/developers) can promote ourselves and display our skills/acumen/values/professionalism/responsibility in an unequivocal way. Regardless of your experience level.

I bootstrapped myself from poverty to Staff software engineer, past the age of 45.

Is that privileged? Or sheer will and force of effort?

I am not unique. I am an example.

monkpit 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Privilege, yes. You had the privilege to dedicate time to learning skills required, obtaining an education, probably bias during hiring processes, etc.

Even though your position might be the result of effort on your part, you do have to acknowledge that you’re privileged to be in a position to expend that effort on what you want, instead of something else, like finding fresh water daily, or whatever. It’s not sheer will that you were born in a (even marginally) more favorable environment than others.

The term “privilege” here doesn’t just mean a trust fund nepo baby.

GlacierFox 4 hours ago | parent [-]

How far could you reduce this down? Do you only clap for malnourished Ethiopian babies that can't find waterthat grow up into full silicon Valley software engineers?

monkpit 4 hours ago | parent [-]

You can be dismissive all you want, but the point is to acknowledge you don’t understand everyone’s situation and you can’t make sweeping generalizations like “I did it and I can judge you if you _didn’t_ do it”.

d_silin 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Goes both way, yes.

History has examples of extremely underprivileged people not compromising on the values even when facing death or torture.

inigyou 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That value usually isn't not telling white lies of no importance in a job interview.

d_silin an hour ago | parent [-]

When does it stop, though?

A white lie during interview, a deadline you promised and knew you could not deliver? A product you ship that claims to do X, but it doesn't?

inigyou 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

All's fair in business and war.

hvb2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just saying, anyone calling themselves an example is someone I'll ignore (but I'll reply to explain the rationale)

This is the mentality that says that if your company goes bust, you didn't work hard enough. Sometimes effort might be the problem..

No, not everyone can make it from nowhere to staff software engineer. That doesn't mean they're not trying hard enough.

kakacik 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

OK how about some real achievements in life, is raising kids the hard way? Career is but a small portion of QoL and overall achievements as human beings, basically all of us software devs these days live have very above-average incomes although most feel like they are deserved or even not enough. So studying from poverty to software is an achievement and big move, usually, but what specific position afterwards is not that important or impressive, its just a question of a) mental capacity, mostly genetic and b) effort put into work, while not elsewhere.

Ie I increased my salary, doing same job, all 100% perm position, roughly 30x compared to my first fulltime software dev job after university. Who cares? It doesn't mean anything, just an afterthought. I am father of 2 small kids, and trying my best to be a good father and role model, often succeeding, sometimes failing. Its by far the hardest effort of my life, it takes relentless 20-25 years and I see otherwise brilliant folks failing at this hard left and right.

Also I wish folks in IT were a bit more humble and considered other engineering careers, with +- same effort taking to get a degree, and much worse career progress/compensation/freedom to choose one's path. Arrogance is much more rare there.

hypfer 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hacker news is full of people having given up, building torment nexii and coping/rationalizing _incredibly_ hard.

So while I agree that privilege is certainly a factor, so is what I've just said.

A lot of people here live very cushy lives that cushion them from very pointy thoughts and questions. As someone who too has to live in this world, I'd rather they didn't.

therealdrag0 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Even “unprivileged” people are moral actors that can take their high road at personal cost.

monkpit 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What do you think privilege is?

therealdrag0 4 hours ago | parent [-]

A vague word that can be spun to your own perspective based on a tower of other vague words and personal values.

I don’t think we’re talking about slaves are we?

bluefirebrand 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

When I was starting out in my career it was "take the first job offer that comes along or starve/become homeless" so no, sometimes the personal cost would be unreasonably high to expect of anyone

This effectively does mean that I was not a moral actor at the time

therealdrag0 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Naw that’s cope. You make your choices, own them.

Would you have stolen or murdered to avoid being homeless? Would that have been a morally blameless act?

inigyou 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Most people will steal to avoid being homeless.

GlacierFox 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Christ - that's a strawman if I ever did see one haha.

watwut 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Highly paid enginners hiding behind "I have no choice I would be hungry" are usually just lying to themselves.

And you dont even get these nearly as often from people who work in lower paid positions. Or who are actually making moral tradeoffs that affects their income.

I have seen engineers take paycut or risk it because of this or that moral conviction. Not wanting to lie to customer, refusing job for gambling company, working one day less per week so that he volunteers for biblical something.

Just telling management no or just communicating about your work with ai or lack of it are not even one of those.