| ▲ | mohsen1 6 hours ago |
| I was curious how this thing works and asked Claude to visualize it -- mostly to see how good Fable is and I have to say, what it made was good enough for me to get a gist of it. Posted it here https://azimi.me/axial-flux-motor-explainer/ |
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| ▲ | tclancy 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Every plausibly cool electric car innovation leads me to the same thought: “5-10 years from now, the restomod potential will be wild once these come down in cost.” For this, I am imagining retrofitting a Pontiac Fiero to reduce as much weight as possible and see if extended flight becomes possible. |
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| ▲ | gloxkiqcza 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Here’s a build series of an ex-Apple/NASCAR/Tesla engineer turned YouTuber swapping Tesla Model 3 drivetrain to a 50s Jag. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoTU9_iCGa6i_C38pwQyg0pBG... | |
| ▲ | lobf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As an antique BMW enthusiast, I know some people that have swapped electric motors in to 2002s and 2000 CSLs and they said it was actually a pretty disappointing experience. You lose the vintage driving experience entirely. | | | |
| ▲ | ardit33 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Number 1 problem is battery weight though. Not electric motors. I have a 84 w123 300D, and would love to add some more power to it. Lightweight hub motors would be great, but any decent size battery would be at least 200lbs+, which is hard to do on a old chasy. | | |
| ▲ | tonyarkles 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Something to keep in mind with hub motors is that they’re unsprung weight, vs the battery pack is pretty much always sprung. While that’s not a huge differentiator for efficiency, it sure cuts down on the abuse the wheels and hub motors will experience | |
| ▲ | serf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | its less hard than you'd think unless you're really going for long range. for my sailboat I am getting rid of a 300lbs diesel and a 30gallon fuel tank with a 45lbs PMAC. That means I have opened up about 465lbs for batteries. Now, with a sailboat you're never truly out of range -- but the point stands : these things are so much lighter than ICEs on average that there is a lot of opportunity even with battery weight as it is (and it's getting better daily). | | |
| ▲ | lazide 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Uh, car batteries are much heavier than most ICE’s. The curb weight on teslas’s are crazy high. BYD can be lighter because they skip on safety gear and proper structural elements - in my experience. |
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| ▲ | WillAdams 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Jeep/Stellantis certainly had problems trying to do this: https://www.thedrive.com/news/jeep-tells-4xe-hybrid-owners-t... | |
| ▲ | parpfish 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | i know series hybrids aren't as efficient as parallel hybrids (thanks technology connections!), but i wonder if they'd be a good candidate for fun restomods. drop in a tiny, powerful electric motor and a small battery (crammed in whatever location is best for weight distribution), and then wire up a little genny powered off your existing fuel tank that can jump in as a range extender | |
| ▲ | tclancy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, my comment was hand-waving away a bit of the reality of it, but swap the Fiero engine for a battery and some of these and it's got to be close to achieving full lift. | |
| ▲ | j_maffe 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think the cited weight loss comes from energy efficiency gains leading to less battery capacity needed. | | |
| ▲ | FabHK 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Electric engines are already very efficient (particularly compared to internal combustion). If you go from 90% to 95% efficiency, you don't save much in terms of battery. ETA: Internal combustion engines half a century ago had an efficiency of 20%, now they're at 40%. That cuts the fuel you need to carry in half. Electric engines are near 100%, and as I said, going from 90% to 95% efficiency cuts required battery by a bit more than 5%, so peanuts. | | |
| ▲ | ajuc 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Going from 90% to 95% efficiency you're halving the thermal loses, thus reducing the need for cooling by half. It's a big deal. Same with going from 99% to 99.5% efficiency. It still reduces the cooling needed by half. | | |
| ▲ | testdelacc1 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > reducing the need for cooling by half But the motor is not the only thing that needs to be cooled. It’s mainly the battery, which has a narrow operating range. The power electronics that convert AC to DC also need to be cooled. So you’re halving the cooling needs of the motor, which is nice but small compared to the other two. And even then, total cooling doesn’t impact range that much compared to warming the battery in cold climates. I think you’ve overstated your case. |
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| ▲ | HDThoreaun 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In the video the yasa guy said most of the weight loss is from getting rid of the yoke. |
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| ▲ | throwway120385 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm going to replace the differential and the automatic transmission in my truck with a 4-cylinder engine and an electric transmission. |
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| ▲ | hamburglar 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Can you elaborate a little on what you asked Claude to do here? This is a pretty impressive one-shot. |
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| ▲ | prepend 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This viz is superficially neat, but hard to get info out of. It seems like a demo in a movie. What did you like most about it? |
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| ▲ | phatfish 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yup, the visualization didn't help me understand the concept any more than plain text. Superficial in the way that you would expect from a system that has no real world reference for what it is creating. To get something better I expect more than a one-shot is needed, and the knowledge to guide it in the right way. | |
| ▲ | testdelacc1 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Look at the beauty of an interactive visualisation of an internal combustion engine made by a human being - https://ciechanow.ski/internal-combustion-engine/ It’s possible to actually learn something from this, whereas the one fable created is just slop with pretty colours. |
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| ▲ | amunozo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You made this with Fable? How many prompt? It is amazing. |
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| ▲ | utopiah 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Thanks for sharing. I wish it was a bit more interactive especially when there are parameters, e.g. "Widen the disc and torque rises with diameter cubed" I wish there was a slider to see that effect and thus maybe why there might be a sweet spot. Also I have "The Way Things Work" on my desk right now and can't help but wonder, could you adapt some of the pages of the book this way? It seems like exactly the kind of content that would benefit from such 3D (interactive) visual explainers. |
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| ▲ | mohsen1 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Code is here https://github.com/mohsen1/axial-flux-motor-explainer Feel free to steal!
This was one shot with Claude Code. You can take it and adopt it to your need | | |
| ▲ | utopiah 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oof... well thanks for sharing but that's basically unusable for me. It neatly all packed in a 2MB file containing all assets, threejs, etc. I assumed it's based on a three.js template due to the `Rendered live with three.js · Drag anywhere to orbit the model` kind of showcase but unfortunately that's not linked. I also imagine the 3D models are more that primitives (at least the arrows showcasing the flow) but I don't know where they came from, if that are also from a template or repository or if they are generated from a tube mesh. So... I'm genuinely grateful that you took the time to share but I don't think I can do something with this except restarting from scratch, especially if it's one-shot. I'd suggest, if you don't mind the extra effort, that you add a ReadMe.md in the repository to clarify how you did this, at least model name, version and prompt. | | |
| ▲ | mohsen1 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mentioned elsewhere too. This was a one-shot thing that made me wow so I thought I share. You're kind with your comments but others are just hating it, even so I said 1. I don't know this motor technology and 2. It was a one shot experiment If I had time and making a polished web page was my goal I could probably do better but this was not the point! | | |
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| ▲ | namibj 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah so the relationship between speed, power, frequency, size (both in the direction of primary flux excitation and in the direction orthogonal to both that and the movement), and torque at nominal values of current density (for a given conductor losses are proportional to the square or this value and to the total mass of that conductor in the machine; that's independent of any of the other scaling parameters; note this is absolute power not percentage) and peak flux limitations (core saturation, permanent magnet demagnetization), are sadly not trivial if you express them in a way that is even just _valid_ for the modern days where we can support electrical frequencies up to around a megahertz at scales up to around 100 kW, and even harder when you remember that core material has severe frequency dependence of it's limits. E.g. for example for a given electrical frequency and decent radial flux synchronous machine, power density is quite static and torque density can actually be dialed quite freely from 2-pole machine (turboset in gas turbine running on the grid at 3600 rpm (or 3000 rpm outside NA and some Pacific Islands) to 40(+) (example deployed at Hoover dam, 180 rpm).
At those higher pole counts, the center of the rotor is no longer electromagnetically active, because the magnetic field lines keep to a narrow ring only about as thick as each pole is wide.
Unfortunately it's mechanically not that trivial to handle a cylindrical shell with a small air gap (this needs to be significantly smaller (about at least 10x) than the pole width) when using substantial torque and speed. Circumferential velocity is practically limited by hoop strength of whatever the outer region of the rotor is made of, even if it's all very nicely balanced, because eventually the magnetic armature flux source (wires or magnets) will fly out. Higher electrical frequencies limit the field winding core's magnetic permeability (magnetic field/force strength amplification relative to vacuum, for same electrical current) which hurts efficiency by dropping the useful mechanical power component of field voltage while the voltage resulting from the current (that needs to happen to cause the magnetic field in the direction of movement that causes the mechanical force) due to wiring resistance stays. (I think the permeability gives the ratio between voltage and current for otherwise identical mechanical load conditions and winding shape?) Thinner wires have less fill factor because the insulation has to stay the same thickness as per-winding voltage stays, but magnetically inactive terminations are less wasteful (for losses and mass) when a decent number of effective turns (>>1, think >10~50 for most of the benefits) are used. Note while the armature necessarily has an even number of poles in it's construction (north/south), the field is not forced to that. Indeed, the iirc most smooth torque (under practical mechanical feasibility limitations and without undue sacrifice of efficiency) results from having a prime number (of field windings, in WYE-style connection) exactly one off from the armature pole count.
Note that for low losses all these torque-smoothing techniques _require_ only a single electrically directly driven winding in each slot (per mechanical field pole) and with that only GCD(field_slots, (armature_poles / 2)) windings get to share an electrical half-bridge (one single wire going to a single voltage-output terminal on the electronics board; note mainstream BLDCs have 3 of these, classic fridge compressors have 2, and modern stepper motors (e.g. 3D printer) have 4). Any time you have multiple windings driven by different electrical source voltages you're wasting heat in the winding because the lowest-loss would require all conductor in the slot to to perfectly evenly share current. There's just one problem with that: you need a nearby slot with exactly opposite phase to even possibly use more than a single (half) turn of "winding" in the slot. If the voltage is still enough to not loose too much in the connections, you can use transistors developed for efficiently powering modern computer chips from comfortable voltages like 12V, but even then a "winding" has to be much longer than an armature pole to mitigate the losses of spreading the return current sideways to where a slot carries the current in the reverse direction.
Once the voltage at the transistor is over around 10V the benefits of more precise control of the field magnetization to the armature position (and how the shapes distort the field lines from anything that would look like a sine wave) could be useful.
In theory that'd also provide direct access to electronically control the air gap (well, net force normal to the air gap "surface") which _could_ be an alternative to mechanical bearings for very thin-shell constructions.
See maglev trains for a pretty practical application of using an electric motor to also levitate the "rotor" in a place where a mechanical bearing ("train wheels + bogies") performs poorly. | |
| ▲ | c22 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | https://archive.org/details/TWTK_WIN | | |
| ▲ | utopiah 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thanks but I'm aware of it, linked to an alternative just yesterday (but might replace by the InternetArchive one instead). A Web version would be so neat as we'd be able to link to pages, even states of the interactive explanation, rather than the whole thing but it's already great to have that basis. |
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| ▲ | lwhi 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Honestly, I don't think this actually provided much above a paragraph of text. The visuals didn't show much, and I learnt a lot more from one of the YouTube videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCO633KE7RA) posted below. It's neat that a whole interactive deck can be produced without effort. But it's just not very interesting. |
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| ▲ | detritus 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I'm at once awed that something like that can be auto-generated (I presume?) and disappointed that it doesn't usefully or practically improve my understanding, beyond written synopses and human videos, at all. Stuff like this reminds me that we still need a human in the loop to edit, to improve, to advance. Auto-from-scratch just doesn't really achieve anything of actual value. | | |
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| ▲ | csomar 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The issue with this is, without an expert, how do I know I am getting an accurate representation? |
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| ▲ | elictronic 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Hundreds of examples of axial flux motors exist online. If you look at the visualization it shows the iron cores in a perpendicular orientation with the hub. This is correct, but loses so much of what makes these specific motors interesting. The angled nature of the grey cores and copper wrapping smoothes the transition between each magnetic field. Basically it is a pretty version of a dumbed down partially incorrect answer. With a knowledgeable user it would be very good, but he has no idea he is wrong. I’m not sure what Dunning Kreguer with graphics should be called. | |
| ▲ | deaux 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You don't. You didn't know before either. The difference is trust. How do you trust it as much as you do the hypothetical humans making such representations? That's up to you. | | |
| ▲ | csomar 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think humans develop expertise and brand names and get called out when they make mistakes and if they are too wrong, their reputation is damaged. This doesn’t seem to apply to AI for some reason. It keeps generating incorrect results after incorrect results, yet people continue to trust its output. I don’t know what to make of this. | | |
| ▲ | ncr100 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Trust" is an abused term, nowadays. Human trust differs from mathematical trust. And branding / marketing abuses the ambiguity. There is no shame in a "likely to hallucinate" model that can be instantiated 1,000 times across 1,000 different machines spread throughout our planet. So, human trust is broken by machine trust. | |
| ▲ | JTbane 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've starting going back to books, either at the library or e-books. Librarians are very good at telling you if nonfiction is biased, outdated, or incorrect. | | | |
| ▲ | deaux 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I think humans develop expertise and brand names and get called out when they make mistakes and if they are too wrong, their reputation is damaged. Take a look at the Forbes billionaires list and some of their statements. Or maybe at the politician fact checkers. If only being wrong damaged reputations. | |
| ▲ | generic92034 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You first heard about this effect with the phrase "computer says no". |
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| ▲ | ncr100 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The question is for you to answer, first. Gotta do that work. (My answer will differ from yours.) Then, predictably, finding the collection of supporting details + vetting the content in question. This is an issue we, technology-folk, ought to help guide our non-tech-co-folk through engaging with, BTW. Our responsibility is rising with tech becoming more deeply entrenched / required for society's operations. |
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| ▲ | oinoom 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| what was the prompt for this, did you use a CAD/threejs skill or grab a model from somewhere? |
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| ▲ | phplovesong 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nice! Did fable generate that animation? Looks crisp |
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| ▲ | engineer_22 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Tbh it did a pretty good job |
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| ▲ | amluto 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I am not an expert, but I do know some physics and I know how to read, and I’m pretty sure this is full of BS. Also it’s a really crappy visualization. |