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putzdown 5 hours ago

One of the "smells" that gives away a quacky ranter is they speak in impassioned, "Why doesn't everyone understand this?" tones, but in fact their argument just doesn't flow. If Zitron's argument were as solid as he keeps saying it is, you would read it and understand it and see that it is solid. He would begin somewhere–statistics on AI demand, say–and then walk the calculations carefully over to the next step–maybe revenue needed for profitability by AI companies–and you could follow the argument. But no. He jumps. He leaps. He circles back. If the situation were really "Gosh why can't you see it?!"-clear, his explanation of the situation would be clear. It isn't, because it isn't.

SlinkyOnStairs 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> He would begin somewhere–statistics on AI demand, say–and then walk the calculations carefully over to the next step–maybe revenue needed for profitability by AI companies–and you could follow the argument.

That's exactly what the first (titled) section does?

0000000000100 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Haha thought you were referring to the upsell at the start asking to subscribe to the newsletter for $70 / year. But yes it does call out the unprecedented amount of money getting dumped into AI.

What turned me off though was this paragraph:

> This is a hysterical era perpetuated by liars, cowards, imbeciles, craven boosters and the easily-fooled. Those excited about generative AI are either the victim or the perpetrator of a con centered around a technology to ingratiate at the highest cost possible.

That's a very bold claim. Really anyone excited about generative AI dude? That's just an absurd claim, and makes it sound like he hasn't used an LLM since GPT 3.5. It's just the language is so hyperbolic and angry that it's giving me more rant vibes that really hurt the tone and damage the (many valid) claims he's trying to make.

Really tried to read through this all the way, but man I'm just not in love with this guy. I feel like the frustration is clouding his judgement. This line is another one with a fact that isn't really grounded:

> so, you know, they only need to grow by 496% by the end of 2029!

Which isn't wrong, but also Anthropic's revenue increased from $1 billion in Dec. 2024 to $47 billion May of 2026. Which of course doesn't guarantee that it will continue to grow at that scale, but it's clear that there is a strong demand for what they are creating.

Idk, not really sure what my point is here. There are just so many facts and numbers quoted in here... It's a bit exhausting to refute a piece like this, when parts are genuinely correct, and parts are maybe subconciously exaggerated due to some emotional leaking into the argument.

mhitza an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Anthropic's revenue increased from $1 billion in Dec. 2024 to $47 billion May of 2026.

That's the kind of claim that requires and asterix, and things like this are what feeds into the AI propaganda machine.

That is an anualized revenue, which are projected numbers and not "real numbers".

josh-sematic an hour ago | parent [-]

Divide both by 12 then and you have monthly revenues. The ratio between them remains the same and remains rather astonishing.

th0ma5 an hour ago | parent [-]

[dead]

Tanjreeve 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So basically you can't find fault with the numbers but you find the tone annoying?

loandbehold an hour ago | parent | next [-]

He implies $400 billion in revenue by the end of 2029 is unrealistic when in fact it's very doable if you look at the trajectory of this technology since ChatGPT 4.0 launch. Google and Meta bring in around $500 billion in ad revenue between two of them annually. ChatGPT will easily bring 100s of billions in ad revenue if fully monetized given 1. it has billion weekly active users 2. ChatGPT conversation provides even better context for ad targeting vs search or social media. Enterprise AI revenue is going through the roof already, and with computer use companies will literally be able to fire large percentage of white collar workers and replace them with AI agent without updating their software infra.

vatsachak 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

And if a pig had wings it could fly

LogicFailsMe 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, he dismisses any value whatsoever to GenAI. That's immediate bozo bit criteria to me. And, well, if Anthropic revenue doesn't grow 5x between now and the end of the decade, I'll be pretty surprised. But, sure, if it doesn't, then someone will keep them around anyway. AMD almost died in the 2010s as one example, but they kept getting propped up and now they're back in the game swinging. There are people who can see alpha beyond the next 10Q. Ed Zitron isn't that sort.

mlyle 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Well, he dismisses any value whatsoever to GenAI.

I didn’t read it that way. I see a lot of value in it.

I just don’t see us justifying the amount of infrastructure being built or current valuations. Or in the unlikely event that we do, the societal upheaval is going to take away the ability to monetize it meaningfully.

OpenAI and Anthropic may make it through. But that is different from saying valuations are justified or that all this infrastructure will pay off.

LogicFailsMe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

"Those excited about generative AI are either the victim or the perpetrator of a con centered around a technology to ingratiate at the highest cost possible."

How else would you read the above statement? He's just preaching to his own choir IMO.

My take: like any gold rush, a lot of dumb ideas will get backed and they will all fail. And then we'll keep the ones that worked. SSND. Good luck picking the winners a priori.

mlyle an hour ago | parent [-]

I read it in context as being about the market prospects of genai.

The problem is, when there is so much overinvestment, everything gets wrecked. In the aftermath of the dotcom boom there was at least a bedrock of fiber and still useful equipment to build upon amid the rubble. This time we are going so much further; also many of the durable assets are misplaced bets and the depreciating ones will depreciate more steeply.

LogicFailsMe an hour ago | parent [-]

Someone should do the analysis of a decade and a half of Nvidia datacenter GPUs from Fermi to Kepler to Maxwell to Pascal to Volta to (Turing) to Ampere to Hopper to Blackwell and generate some hard depreciation numbers. Fiddling around a bit, 16-20% annual depreciation (so 5-6 years total and then any further revenue is bonus goods) it would appear, but that's a fiddle number.

But confounding this, K80s and V100s are still offered by cloud providers 13 and 9 years after their releases and academia still loves their GTX 1080 Pascals in their desktops. At companies, the beancounters take a computation and find the best architecture !/$ for that calculation. It does not need to be brand new shiny. It's Nvidia's job to make that case, not them. But anyway, the real data is right there. And those old GPUs demonstrate the dark fiber is already in place (and it's not so dark or they'd pull their racks).

AI is the special case. New GPU generations are the only way to access HW implementations of last year's research on precision modes and matrix math. If that slows down, that would be the first real bellwether of a slowdown. It hasn't happened yet. I'm a little surprised myself, but I also think coding agents are the vanguard of general design agents and that's going to hit a lot of industries at once. So as long as the next generation of GPU halves the price of tokens and doubles throughput (or better), the demand for tokens will continue to rise IMO.

What I don't think is that AI can come for anyone's job successfully no matter what the C-suite sorts insist.

vatsachak 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Alright, let me explain what's happening this Q

Chinese providers realized that LLMs have peaked and have started trying to reduce the price per token. Deepseek pro v4 can easily add tests to my complicated code and costs cents for a million tokens.

I can ask Claude or ChatGPT architecture questions and then use Deepseek for the rest.

How are these businesses going to pay to price of energy and GPU depreciation again?

cmiles74 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't read Ed Zitron, aside from when he appears here on Hacker News, and I also find his tone to be over-the-top. I think we might agree on that much.

These articles are lengthy but, to my understanding, Ed's idea is...

* AI companies have committed to purchasing X amount of compute

* Data centers are being constructed to meet this demand, they'll need to charge amount Y

* AI companies do not have sufficient revenue to pay amount Y

IMHO this isn't surprising, personally the only real use-case for AI that I've seen is code generation or automated sales or scam calls. This doesn't seem like a big enough market for the huge dollar amounts I'm seeing thrown around.

I'm curious why you think Ed is so far off the mark on this. To me, it seems like we are headed for a big correction on the whole AI thing.

mike_hearn 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not the OP but Zitron makes clear errors:

• He seems to think that the moment Nvidia release new hardware, all existing hardware becomes worthless. It doesn't and there are plenty of tokens being served by old GPUs. This makes all his calculations about how quickly datacenters have to pay off useless.

• All his numbers about costs, revenues etc are guesses or attempts to work backwards from off the cuff and frequently inconsistent comments by tech executives. They could easily be very far off.

• He doesn't seem to understand that datacenters have never been full of hardware on their opening day. A lot of his attacks revolve around this confusion - he learns that an opened datacenter isn't yet at full load or fully equipped with GPUs and thinks that means it's been delayed. I remember when Google first opened their facility in the Dalles, it took years for it to completely fill with machines.

cmiles74 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> All his numbers about costs, revenues etc are guesses or attempts to work backwards from off the cuff and frequently inconsistent comments by tech executives. They could easily be very far off.

Agreed, but I'd argue that Ed doesn't have much else to work with. I'd like to see journalists take this tack and start asking these executives to either back up their statements or back down from them. They should be held accountable for their statements.

Even if we dial down these numbers by a magnitude they are still insanely large and the AI companies do not seem to be making enough money to balance things out.

> He seems to think that the moment Nvidia release new hardware, all existing hardware becomes worthless. It doesn't and there are plenty of tokens being served by old GPUs. This makes all his calculations about how quickly datacenters have to pay off useless.

I agree that older hardware from Nvidia doesn't become worthless when Nvidia releases new, more powerful hardware. I have to point out that it certainly loses a great deal of value and that's not nothing.

> He doesn't seem to understand that datacenters have never been full of hardware on their opening day. A lot of his attacks revolve around this confusion - he learns that an opened datacenter isn't yet at full load or fully equipped with GPUs and thinks that means it's been delayed. I remember when Google first opened their facility in the Dalles, it took years for it to completely fill with machines.

Is that really the case? I mean, I read about the build out of these data centers being delayed all of the time. I read this last week and it seems roughly in line with Ed's ravings:

> A JPMorgan analysis last month found that more than 60% of data-center capacity planned for completion in 2027 isn’t yet under construction, and another 7% is delayed.[0]

[0]: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/america-s-data-cen...

LogicFailsMe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It's either new GPUs make the old ones worthless or old GPUs make the new ones too expensive because they're still useful, it depends which ranter you're reading at the time.

Just like Michael Burry kept comparing NVDA to CSCO and now he doesn't do so anymore now that NVDA's P/E is ~31 and CSCO's is ~41. Funny that.

ai_critic 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It helps if you look at Zitron's work history and experience. He's a hype man and a games journalist. His opinions on this are whatever sells, not exactly whatever is correct.

This is alarmingly obvious whenever he talks out of his depth about things like how companies actually use AI and reason about business decisions.

sumeno 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They don't immediately become worthless, but they don't last all that long either

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/gpus/datacenter-g...

dofm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> He seems to think that the moment Nvidia release new hardware, all existing hardware becomes worthless.

I am the OP and I totally agree with you on this one point. In fact the progress being made by open weights models strongly suggests that some of this hardware has much more of a life.

The overarching point he makes about incomplete data centres is that the current offering is running successfully on that very incomplete capacity, right?

What he is saying is that he cannot believe the demand exists to fill any of the unbuilt stuff, but much of it is still commitments that are going to have to be paid for, unless they can be backed out. He points to Nadella essentially confirming there will be overcapacity.

He also makes an interesting point that people tend to think "I can't get a GPU right now" means "there is intense, live demand for GPUs in data centres" when in fact the reason you can't get one is buy-and-hold. Including much of that new replacement hardware: it is being bought even the old stuff would (let us stipulate will) do the job.

I think he (or someone who interviewed him) recently said it reminded them less of the dot com boom and more of the Chinese real estate bubble.

hn_throwaway_99 18 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> personally the only real use-case for AI that I've seen is code generation or automated sales or scam calls.

That seems like a giant paucity of imagination. I can easily name a lot of areas where AI is already having a large impact and it's not hard to imagine the impact growing:

1. Customer service. Yes, we all like to laugh at the silly chatbot mistakes, linked list reversals and Instagram oopsies, but a lot of companies are putting a lot of effort (and spend) into AI for customer service.

2. The legal profession is already spending a lot on AI, and it will only grow. Again, we all like to read about hallucinated case citations, but those are solvable problems (honestly I felt they were more human problems than tech problems to begin with) and there are so many areas in research and document summarization that AI is really good at.

3. Radiology. There are lots of arguments over whether AI will "replace radiologists", but that's besides the point. The largest radiology groups in the country already use AI software to check for specific missed diagnoses, and the expected spend on AI will grow, a lot.

4. Enterprise knowledge management. Services like Glean are popular and growing.

I can easily go on.

JamesBarney 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't know if Ed is far off the mark. But this article does nothing to help illuminate it.

He mixes estimated capex spend by like 3 different sources with actually commitments by the LLM providers.

He talks about how crazy it would be for ai providers to double revenue every year. But openai is doubling every 9 months and anthropic is doubling every 3.

It's obvious if AI consumption stops growing today those companies are in trouble, and if AI consumption keeps growing at current rates they'll be more than fine.

Most people expect growth rate to slow, just no one knows by how much. This will determine if there is an over build out or not.

Terr_ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> He would begin somewhere–statistics on AI demand, say–and then walk the calculations carefully over to the next step–maybe revenue needed for profitability by AI companies–and you could follow the argument.

Which of the hyperlinks provided at the beginning sounded like what you wanted, and after you clicked it* how did it disappoint you?

The information you are describing is stuff I would not expect anybody to repeatedly duplicate across periodic blog-posts.

* (Yes, I'm being sardonic, but if you did bother to click them, then I'm legitimately interested in your answer.)

athrowaway3z 2 hours ago | parent [-]

He's right that its all going to pop dramatically and catastrophically for some. But having read a bunch of his stuff, there are two things he's just plain wrong about and they make his martyrdom tone too grating.

- His own objectivity - he consistently throws shade (rightfully) at the pro-AI side being financially 'required' to hold a certain world view, but is completely blind to his own claim to fame effecting him similarly.

- He consistently claims AI can't be made to work, and tries to prove this by calculating with the bubble prices. Its like saying tulips could never be profitable in the middle of the mania because ships were too expensive as proven by their current price to use for shipping tulips.

Add in the semi regular instance downplaying AI's usefulness contradicting my own experience and I mostly dont bother reading him anymore.

Its not like I'll be surprised that shit hits the fan, and he's not going to call the 'when' any better than wallstreetbets or an octopus.

hn_throwaway_99 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah, to be honest I think his take is a bit nonsense because it's so historically inaccurate.

Most hugely transformational technologies in the past also resulted in giant bubbles that burst, because investors piled into lots of companies in the hope that their particular company would win out. Railroads, automobiles, telecommunications networks, the Internet, etc. etc. were all hugely important, transformational technologies that all caused giant bubbles that burst.

But Ed Zitron seems hellbent on saying AI is a nothing burger, and that's why the bubble will burst. But the latter doesn't necessarily follow from the former, and indeed the examples I gave show that the exact opposite is often true.

I believe that the AI bubble will burst precisely because it is such a transformational technology. AI may not live up to the ways its biggest cultists like to shout ("Feel the AGI flow through you!!!"), but similarly in the .com boom/bust there was tons of nonsense about how we'd do absolutely everything online, we were in a new "eyeball economy", whatever that meant, yada yada, yet I'd argue that in some ways the Internet was actually a bigger impact than originally envisioned, just not necessarily in the way that late 90s boosters envisioned it.

ccamrobertson 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Agreed. Phrases like "journalists are currently gooning over OpenAI and Anthropic" really put me off. It's a poor attempt at modern muckraking; cheeky yet offering little substance.

dofm 4 hours ago | parent [-]

He's just a Brit, writing in a style we write in. Sweary, comical, red-top. The Register did it for years.

oytis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not a Brit, but I do enjoy British culture, including writing. I haven't been able to read any of Ed's rants to the end despite generally being on the cautious side towards LLMs

Kiro 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think you know what "gooning" means. It's edgy Gen Z slang and has nothing to do with being British.

dofm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I didn't say it was. I'm just observing that his muckraking style is part of a very long British pundit tradition. Americans have never liked it — Intel got very upset about The Register's coverage of "the Itanic".

(And he's not Gen Z anyway is he; he's among the older millennials. He's appropriating it for muckraking purposes.)

1attice 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure, but does that vibe invalidate the argument? What an odd time the middle of an argument is to be clutching pearls and worrying about prose quality.

Style and vibes notwithstanding, is there anything in your view that wrong with the argument itself? Could a better or more polite writer have convinced you with the same shape of logic?

Jtarii 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It shows that the author has a strong negative emotional reaction towards AI which likely influences his opinions and impartiality.

He is preaching to the choir, if you already hate AI you will love the article, if you don't hate AI already you will find the article insufferable.

Kiro 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I responded to a comment about the prose. Why are you not calling out that one instead?

Der_Einzige 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

2 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
lispisok 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oddly suspicious how this comment which was not one of the first comments which does not address the content at all but the tone skyrocketed to the top.

hnuser123456 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The tone is written as abrasive to anyone who doesn't already agree, which shows this is more of an emotional opinion piece than open minded objective research.

Hype cycles never last forever, but that doesn't mean all the value has been tapped by any means. The fact that modern GPUs can solve ridiculously complex high dimensional functions is a superpower in every possible field of research.

BoggleOhYeah an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

HN does this with every Zitron article.

sigmoid10 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I particularly enjoy reading big banners asking me to pay for a newsletter subscription if I "liked" the content. Not if I found it interesting. Not if it actually provided any value whatsoever to me. No, you just have to "like" it. In other words, it is meant to be written in an engaging way and perhaps reinforce your believes like an echo chamber or even stir up certain strong emotions. Not to convey information. So, thanks, but no. I'm sure this opinion blog is very well written, but I don't think it is more well founded than anything else in this sea of opinions that sports a bigger garbage patch than the Pacific Ocean.

argee 4 hours ago | parent [-]

A big chunk of text asked for support on the basis of the article. I hadn’t read the article.

I scrolled down a bit to read. A popup took up my screen, asking me to subscribe, having read essentially nothing at this point.

I just left. Life is too short.

dolebirchwood 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I know the HN guidelines discourage commenting on "tangential annoyances" on a website, but I think this issue is more than just tangential and more than just an annoyance.

When an author is this relentless in pushing you to sign up, there is good reason to suspect that financial motives are unduly driving an agenda.

I counted 8 such instances:

1. In the sidebar

2. At the top of the article

3. Popup in the middle of the screen after just a couple of scrolls into the body

4. Several paragraphs into the article

5. At the bottom of the article

6. At the bottom of the page under the comments section

7. Popup at the bottom of the screen after scrolling to the end of the body

8. (My personal favorite) Click the "user" icon in the bottom-right corner, which you'd normally expect to open an AI chat bot these days, and (surprise) you're prompted to sign up for a paid subscription

This sort of behavior just completely tanks any and all credibility this person may have.

shimman an hour ago | parent [-]

Of things to be upset about, an independent journalist asking readers to pay for access ranks very low. Especially compared to LLM companies that are exacerbating the climate crisis, increasing cancer rates among residents, or increasing utilities for residents.

This sort of behavior completely tanks any and all credibility this commentator may have.

an hour ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
aagha 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He does this on his podcast on a regular basis.

alfalfasprout 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not entirely clear to me that the opposing argument is well-formed either. You constantly see numbers and statistics being wildly mis-used or overextrapolated.

1attice 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Arguments have smells but rigour demands you investigate further. Zitron's smelly prose is, ironically, just the kind of stylistic distraction that AI can help condition; the further irony is that he will one day seem to have been right, for a year or two.

The money is indeed losing its mind over AI, and Zitron is a stopped clock. A correction is coming but the tool isn't going anywhere.

quater321 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

surgical_fire 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

His arguments on the numbers of AI are actually pretty solid.

I am still to see a solid counter to what he brings up there.