| ▲ | norir 3 days ago |
| Terry Tao is a next level vibe coder: he inspires people to do his vibe coding for him. As someone with a background in advanced math, though never even close to Tao's level, I find myself skeptical about this type of mathematics. I don't personally find it beautiful and it feels like the line between the profound and the trivial (as in of minimal importance not difficulty) is blurry. One could argue for pure mathematics that is of no practical utility but is aesthetically beautiful, but I struggle to see the beauty in a gargantuan lean proof constructed by 100 different people. Perhaps this work will lead to deeper insight about the universe and the human condition, but I catch a whiff of problem solving for the sake of problem solving untethered from a deeper sense of purpose and meaning. |
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| ▲ | 12345ieee 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > I struggle to see the beauty in a gargantuan lean proof constructed by 100 different people Why does it need to be beautiful? Once you proved it it's true and you can use its consequences in math, sciences and engineerings. |
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| ▲ | pfortuny 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Much (most?) of math consists in transmission of it (according to Thurston [1]), a 1000-page proof with no possibility of transmission is mostly useless. The proof of Fermat's last Theorem is important in itself, and adds much more than the mere result. I am not talking about the supposed "beauty" of a proof (I do not believe in that concept, rather in "elegance", which is not the same), I am talking about the proof itself, and the insights it provides. [1] https://www.ams.org/journals/bull/1994-30-02/S0273-0979-1994... | | |
| ▲ | nilkn 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | An inscrutable 1000-page Lean proof may have low transmissibility amongst humans, yet extremely high transmissibility amongst AI mathematicians. Probably AI mathematics needs a specially constructed or trained translation or compression system (likely also an AI system) that helps transmit dense Lean proofs back into human-style thinking. We may even see an entire field develop around creating human-comprehensible compressions of vast formal breakthroughs in mathematics. Such an activity would almost certainly be both art and science -- there's some objectivity in that certain abstractions or definitions inherently cover more ground more efficiently, yet there's also a deep creativity and artistry in finding compressions that are adapted to the specific 3+1D spatiotemporal intuition of the human mind. Perhaps with time this will keep a lot of the originality and creativity of research mathematics alive -- maybe with that work having even more centrality than it does today. Instead of seeing this all as a loss of beauty in mathematics, I choose to see it as the beginning of a new age, which will bring entirely new problems to solve, yet also accelerate discovery at an exponential rate. | |
| ▲ | cman1444 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What is the difference between "beauty" and "elegance" of a proof? | | |
| ▲ | pfortuny 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Beauty" is something I cannot define. "Elegance", as I use it, is the use of tools as precisely as possible. It is a technical term, whereas "beauty" I cannot define. Of course, that is my view of it. |
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| ▲ | simianwords 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You are mixing a lot of categories here -- beauty, verbosity, utility, elegance, insights. Why all that when you just need one thing: truth. |
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| ▲ | zerobees 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Outside of some niche specializations like cryptography, math isn't practiced because of "consequences". Most mathematicians take pride in their work not having any obvious practical applications. They're also overwhelmingly working in university settings where they're not expected to generate revenue or deliver practical results. We basically subsidize the practice of mathematics as an art form, and if you try to take the artistry away, you might find that the artists don't want to play along. And I guess you can imagine future robo-math production lines without any human involvement, and then LLMs finding applications for the resulting theorems, but it's not possible today. | | |
| ▲ | chermi 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Most mathematicians don't take pride in their results having no applications. That's just not true. Maybe some quirky pure logicians or something. But otherwise 90%+* of mathematicians I know would be at least satisfied if not thrilled for their work to be used by others. *Completely made up statistic. | |
| ▲ | setopt 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are you sure that’s «most» mathematicians? At the universities I’ve been to (as a student and now faculty), «applied mathematics» and «statistics» have been the two largest divisions. But perhaps that’s a bias from engineering-heavy universities? | | |
| ▲ | jubilanti 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Applied Math" and "Statistics" are distinct fields from "Mathematics," not subfields of it. People in those two departments are often closer to Computer Science or the statistics subfield in a domain science field (e.g. biostatistics, econometrics) than to Mathematics in terms of what they actually teach and research. |
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| ▲ | bigmadshoe 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You put it perfectly. And all these AI math startups don't actually care about mathematics. They are just using it as a proxy for general reasoning, with the VC pitch being some kind of world domination after they crack these problems. |
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| ▲ | alasr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why does it need to be beautiful? "Beauty", IMO, signifies the idea that you're doing `something` for its own the sake where "its own sake" approximate the idea of getting/being closer to (or in proximity of) `something`/`anything`/`someone` you find "beautiful". > Once you proved it it's true and you can use its consequences in math, sciences and engineerings (sic). The expression "you can use its consequences in ..." suggests that the action is a "just a means" to "something else". However, not everyone is interested in the idea of "something else"; they're interested in the idea itself (in a broad sense) as that's one of the main reason they got started/involved in the first place. --- We all do things as "just a means" to "something else". However, there must be an "end" to this chain of "something else"; otherwise, how do you find any "meaning" (or sense of fulfillment) in this whole enterprise (or chain of "something else"s)? | |
| ▲ | jvvw 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The vast majority of research-level pure mathematics is never going to get used in science or engineering. Obviously it is hard to predict what will be useful, but for the type of mathematics that is unlikely to be, there is a question as to why we care about it, and that almost has to come down to beauty in some sense - some mathematics gives us a new lens to look at parts of the mathematical world and others chip away at problems in more mundane ways in the hope that they inspire or contribute to new parts of mathematics that are beautiful. | |
| ▲ | bwestergard 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why prove the Pythagorean theorem rather than just prove 3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2? For any practical application, you are only interested in finite set of concrete identities, so anything beyond that is surplus to requirements, surely? | | |
| ▲ | spacemanspiffii 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you may be interested in more abstract things. In this case, let's say you're creating a program for a 3D printed thing, and you have to fit a diagonal cardboard in a rectangular box, you'd like to be sure that the Pythagorean theorem holds even in cases where you haven't tried it out. | |
| ▲ | moregrist 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > For any practical application, you are only interested in finite set of concrete identities I do a lot of numerical work in settings where computational efficiency is useful. In my work, most cases you can do numerically using integration or Monte Carlo sampling or whatever. It’s slow. It often pays to find a closed-form solution. Even if it’s just a starting point that needs refinement. To put in terms of the Pythagorean theorem: Proving the Pythagorean theorem gives you a relationship that’s reliable, fast to evaluate, and general. Proving individual tuples gives you none of this. That doesn’t even touch on how theorems give us a glimpse at deeper structure and truths. Proving a bunch of right-triangle tuples will probably never lead you to the rest of the identities in trig. | |
| ▲ | fn-mote 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The current commentators are surely missing the fact that this comment is sarcastic. | |
| ▲ | SiempreViernes 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You meant this as satire, right? |
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| ▲ | layer8 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You want to understand why it’s true, and that often correlates with beauty. | | |
| ▲ | simianwords 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | How is this relevant here? AI helps you understand the why -- it literally discovers the proof and hands it to you with explanations. It hands you the proof that you would have otherwise not found easily. | | |
| ▲ | layer8 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If the proof is hundreds or thousands of lines of Lean, it’s not clear that the AI will be able to provide an insightful “why”, instead of just dozens of microsteps. And if it can provide insightful “whys”, that still correlates with beauty then. Given the slop-like nature of what current generative AI tends to produce, I wouldn’t however count on the latter quite yet. | |
| ▲ | UcatnapnSula an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | slopinthebag 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Why does it need to be beautiful? “Beauty will save the world” |
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| ▲ | throwaway67678 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Arguments about beauty don't lead anywhere constructive because they are too observer- and context-dependent. Poincaré himself was decrying continuous non-differentiable functions as abominations. The monster group is, well, just like that. What feels intellectually ugly for one generation is natural for the next, and the field moves on |
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| ▲ | potbelly83 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That's not what op is arguing. To use your example, coming up with singular examples of continuous non-differentiable functions is an example of "ugly" mathematics, whereas putting them into a nice framework where they can be analyzed as a whole (i.e. functional analysis, density of such functions, etc...) is an example "elegant and insightful" mathematics. The same with the monster group, on its own maybe nothing special, but then you have the connections with other branches of math. Tao seems so focused on the individual problems and not their connections/generalizations. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway67678 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Well one does have to come up with continuous non-differentiable functions to begin with, right? Weierstrass had to shock the community with his weird series that's almost everywhere nondifferentiable before people could conceive of a nice framework that includes them. People do not invent whole encompassing abstractions out of nowhere | | |
| ▲ | potbelly83 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Great point, I think the argument you could make about Tao (fairly or unfairly) is he never tries to build that framework. |
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| ▲ | Ygg2 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | According to legends Pythagoreans tried to surpress existence of irrational numbers because they couldn't be expressed as ratio of natural numbers Supposedly even drowned their member that divulged their existence. | |
| ▲ | zerobees 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Arguments about beauty don't lead anywhere constructive because they are too observer- and context-dependent. Meh. You can successfully argue that there is no objective anything. It's all just our perception and the emotions we associate with it. We built entire civilizations on subjective notions of good, evil, beauty, and so on. So where do you draw the line between "acceptably subjective" and "too subjective"? And are you sure it's not just a subjective code name for "the thing I don't like"? Ultimately, people practice mathematics mostly for abstract reasons. It's not a field where you routinely ship products and get rich by meeting market demand. If 99% of contemporary mathematicians don't want to become prompt engineers, there's nothing that makes the transition to AI math inevitable. If not mathematicians, the only party with vested interest in that would be the PR departments of frontier labs. | |
| ▲ | threethirtytwo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Agreed, mathematics is ugly without ai. I feel beauty is in massive complexity and intricacy. Every time I see a small proof it feels too easy and trivial. Triviality and simplicity is ugly to me. |
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| ▲ | mswphd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| the way to interpret the gigantic lean proof is not by inlining each lemma, looking at all the lines, and thinking "yeah that's a lot". That's also not the way to read a paper. Instead, you proceed in layers of abstraction. For example 1. the main claim may rest on some set of sub-claims, as well as some local (to teh main claim) work to "patch things together" 2. each of those sub-claims themselves may require other sub-claims + local work, etc These can be collected into a dependency graph. In lean, this is often called a "blueprint". Here is the blueprint for the formalization of the Polynomial Frieman-Rusza conjecture (now a theorem, by Gowers, Green, Manners, and Tao). https://teorth.github.io/pfr/blueprint/ This layer of abstractions is (roughly) equivalent a different way to format mathematics. You could remove the Lean component (let alone any AI), and create such a dependency graph for a paper. I would argue this is a clearer way to format mathematics (again, ignoring both the formal verification applications of it, as well as AI). Any mathematics paper intrinsically has a graph such as this underlying it, and tries to make the various linkages in the graph clear via prose. Prose is only so powerful a way to organize things. I'm sure you're familiar with the way early mathematicians would describe various formula (e.g. the quadratic formula) via prose. It is very hard to understand. Separately from this dependency-graph perspective, you can do things like 1. add formal verification. Now, each component in the dependency graph is verifiable with high confidence (though harder to write and read). This has some benefits and downsides. Harder to write and read is bad. Being able to have high confidence in the veracity of the result is *very* good. It allows larger collaborations in mathematics. Previously, a large collaboration would require all mathematicians to trust eachother to a large extent. This is (practically) difficult. 2. when each component can now be verified to high accuracy, you can now throw AI at it. I won't extoll the virtue of this. There are parts of it that seem interesting, but many "AI for Math" things currently are stil producing unformalized papers (in prose). Maybe the main thing I'd say is that this type of "graph structure, with each component trusted" is already implicitly what mathematicians do. You write papers that cite other papers etc. Except now, instead of needing to look for status signals to trust papers (or invest personal effort), you can look for another (honestly fairer) signal to trust papers. So there's a sense in which formalization allows for the democratization of mathematics. I do think there's something beautiful about that. |
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| ▲ | zem 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| the analogy with experimental physics is a good one - being sure something is true is a good first step to developing an elegant proof of its truth. |
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| ▲ | empath75 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think what people find beautiful in math is largely something that enables the mathematics (or physics) to be translated to something that they can think about intuitively, and what people can handle in an intuitive way is largely an artifact of what the brain evolved to be able to think about "naturally". But it's quite possible that most things that are true about the universe or math are just ugly and unintuitive, and the pursuit of truth shouldn't necessarily be limited by what people can easily reason about and hold in their heads. Beautiful explanations are lovely when they exist, but we shouldn't wait for them if we can also find the truth through an ugly method. |
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| ▲ | hashmap 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > One could argue for pure mathematics that is of no practical utility wait what is the math with no utility |