| ▲ | malwrar 5 hours ago |
| Back when ChatGPT came out, I was so shocked by how _good_ it was for an “AI” product that I simply had to know how it worked. Over the next month I ended up drawing out a block diagram on a whiteboard I have in my office, with the math involved next to each step in the blackboard. I’d puzzle about each step along the way, and the triumph of completing the drawing was also that of this sense of deep understanding. I kept that drawing up for many months after, and would gaze at it often during meetings and idle moments in wonder. This is to say: the autoregressive decoder-only transformer llm architecture as pioneered by openai is wildly simple for how revolutionary its results are. I was reading about non-learned classical SLAM systems (uses video + handcrafted math to produce 3d mappings of physical spaces while also locating the camera in those spaces) at the time, and comparatively speaking I’d say the math is about as complicated as ONE of the components in those complex formulations. The only reason frontier LLMs need 6-figure computers to run is because the model designers made the middle bit in those models REALLY BIG, dimensionally speaking. They just took the steam engine, made a few gargantuan versions of it, and are selling them as the ultimate source of power. This was openai’s entire breakthrough. Making this particular model architecture larger leads to emergent capabilities like being able to pick the best ending to a story/set of instructions or answer questions about broad factual knowledge. I’ve been meanwhile watching these AI companies attempt, successfully, to sell this capability as some sort of robot consciousness hand-crafted by supergeniuses. The fact that they are getting away with it is almost as shocking to me as the discovery itself. |
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| ▲ | jfim 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Indeed. It's pretty interesting to realize after implementing GPT-2 that the frontier models are scaled up versions of that, with various tweaks to improve performance, model-wise. The secret sauce though is all the datasets, RL training, knowledge of what works from doing all kinds of ablation experiments, and a massive compute moat. |
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| ▲ | gobdovan 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The secret sauce is also having the necessary 'creativity' to not get ceased and desisted into oblivion and jail from all the copyrighted material you trained your model on. Btw, not making a moral judgement, [0] shows Michael and Dalton from YC discussing why Ilya Sutskever had to leave Google to pursue what's now ChatGPT [0] https://youtu.be/E8pvgN1j-Ck?t=748 | |
| ▲ | achrono 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How do we know that today's frontier models are merely scaled up versions of that? Genuine question, since the labs have narrowed what they share over the years to now almost nothing, in terms of how the model was trained and how it works under the hood. | | |
| ▲ | gobdovan 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | DeepSeek research: - V3 https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.19437 - V2 https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.04434 - R1 https://arxiv.org/abs/2501.12948 (RL applied to ML models was well-known beforehand, but they show it in the open, at scale, on big models) Then, there's the incentive analysis. If you can see that these models empirically get better with scale, why would you swap the main architecture? Those events will be pretty rare. I'm not saying there's noone cooking a new architecture, just that it is a pretty rare event. And it would have to come from some researchers that would be happy to not publish their findings, which is not really what a sizable portion of elite researchers (obviously not all) are incentivized to do. Of course, it's a bit of a verbal compression to claim simply 'scaled up'. They are recognisable scaled up transformers, but most new models come with a few tricks, but we're at the point where those usually are not an architectural rewrite and added to solve an explicit problem, like hallucination, not for big new capability gains. | |
| ▲ | matusp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are thousands of people working in top level labs. Somebody would leak it | |
| ▲ | ai_slop_hater 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No they are clearly not just scaled up versions of gpt 2; there are different LLM architectures like mixture of experts etc that appeared relatively recently. I am not an expert though, far from it. | | |
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| ▲ | crossroadsguy an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What hopes/paths does a mere CS bachelor (not deep into stats/maths), and mid level dev (native mobile only; 10-15 years exp.), have about not only understanding it (maybe not fully) but getting possibly into this as a career? Not expecting churning out models and AI systems from the first weeks/months but entry/employment into this field? (If I can be honest, and I am not being disparaging about anything lest it might seem so, I am looking at it from a career breakthrough/move perspective rather than an intellectual pursuit.) |
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| ▲ | antirez 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is a different way to look at this: that is, actually the Transformer is a minimal complication of what the based model is: in theory the neural network could be just a huge FFN, which is anyway the part of the Transformer that does the heavy lifting. But this would be impossibile to train both numerically and computationally, so the Transformer encodes enough priors for it to work: the causal attention, and the math tricks like the residuals and so forth. But the bottom line of all this is that the Transformer works because of the incredible semantical power of simple/huge FFNs. |
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| ▲ | wuschel 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Could you perhaps cite the core papers for LLMs beyond „Attention is all you need“? |
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| ▲ | sigmoid10 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Attention is all you need" is actually a bad paper if you want to learn about autoregressive LLMs specifically, because it describes a more complicated encoder-decoder architecture while modern LLMs are decoder only. So it's an unnecessarily hard way to get into the subject. "Language Models are Unsupervised Multitask Learners" is probably what you are looking for (aka the GPT-2 paper). This was the first time LLMs really showed what is possible, i.e. they can learn to generalize very well from unstructured data. So no more human labelling necessary, which until then was the primary bottleneck in ML. The paper also lists several key ingredients beyond transformers that are mostly still in place today. This also highlights that there was more to it than just "scaling the transformer algorithm" like many people claim. Most developments since then were about improving training data, until "Outrageously Large Neural Networks: The Sparsely-Gated Mixture-of-Experts Layer" drastically changed the architecture landscape again. Later big developments like thinking/reasoning/chain of thought/inference time compute (whatever you want to call it nowadays) are actually all about training again. They work using the exact same architecture. | | |
| ▲ | redox99 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Chain of Thought was kind of an obvious solution that everybody knew was necessary by the time chatgpt / gpt4 came out. It was just a matter of time that frontier labs actually shipped it. MoE was also pretty straightforward, just a bit surprising how well it worked (that you can get away with just 1/32 active parameters), but most researchers would have come up with it on their own probably. The true ground breaking papers are the first two you mentioned (transformers and gpt2), and InstructGPT was also very surprising that it worked so well. |
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| ▲ | blackbear_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The GPT3 paper is a good starting point Language Models are Few-Shot Learners
https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.14165 I also enjoyed the papers for DeepSeek and GLM for an overview of all the tricks you need to make these things work DeepSeek-V3.2: Pushing the Frontier of Open Large Language Models
https://arxiv.org/abs/2512.02556 GLM-4.5: Agentic, Reasoning, and Coding (ARC) Foundation Models
https://arxiv.org/abs/2508.06471 | |
| ▲ | sharma-arjun 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not a core paper, but I found Formal Algorithms for Transformers [1] (a Google paper from 2022) to have a great pedagogical style. [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2207.09238 | | |
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| ▲ | 10GBps 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yep. It's nearly identical to the neural nets we were using in the 90s. Back then even a supercomputer wasn't big enough or fast enough to do what we do today. I have to wonder though. Is this all a human brain is? A similar thing to an LLM just scaled exponentially larger. I mean a brain is not just neurons with simple connections to each other. The neurons, axons, dendrites, <insert_unexplained_thing>, etc in a brain are all holding and processing information in different ways and doing it nearly 100% in parallel. That's a really big model. The biological discoveries show how complex a biological brain actually is. Even the tiny brains in a bee or spider are able to solve puzzles and use tools. That's crazy. |
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| ▲ | ctolsen 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No, it’s definitely not what a human brain is. That makes very little sense. The ways we interact with language (and thus conceptual memory) is completely and fundamentally different. | | |
| ▲ | rfv6723 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is it different though? If we look beyond written languages which are late inventions of human civilization, oral languages are continuous and build with blocks not words. Chomskyan school misled the entire field of linguistics for decades by ignoring spoken languages. | | |
| ▲ | uoaei 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is different, but there may be some universal principles that are relevant more abstractly among both cases. Of particular interest is the empirical notion that statistical models of a certain form will always tend to "average out noise" and "learn meaningful patterns" up to the capacity that those models have for representing said patterns. A parallel notion to this is the hypothesis dubbed "thermodynamic origins of life". The universal principle binding these two seemingly disparate topics is one that seems to underlie any sense of "learning" in physical systems: that semantics of those systems depend on their representational power, and the semantics they do come to represent are the results of adding up many pushes in one "direction" (phase space / state space / etc.) encoding a pattern, and adding up many random noise jiggles will cancel out but give you a first-order sense of variance of those semantic features as expressed by the environment. As this description is so overly abstract, an exercise for the reader is to try to work through an explanation of how, say, a river delta comes to "learn" about its environment by "reacting" to the influences at its borders, and how it "encodes" whatever it is that it learns in the substrate that it inhabits. |
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| ▲ | redox99 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the 90s you didn't have norm layers, residuals, attention, and some more. So you're missing a lot of the building blocks that make LLMs. It's not a matter of just having the compute. | |
| ▲ | spacebacon 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | LLMs are semiotic infrastructure. You won’t find a better analogy. The cognitive frame won’t hold. | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Attention layers were not used in the 90s. | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | otabdeveloper4 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I mean a brain is not just neurons with simple connections to each other. No, it's not. There are many animals that have extremely complex and even learned behaviour that have literally zero neurons. Clearly "neurons" is an oversimplification just-so story, not a scientific theory. | | |
| ▲ | adammarples 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Apparently even single-celled protozoa can show learned trial and error behaviour. | |
| ▲ | formerly_proven 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you consider fungi animals or do you perhaps mean animals that don't have a brain/CNS? |
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| ▲ | foxes 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Probably better to not simply reduce it by just saying X is Y then if it has all that extra complexity and capacity. |
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| ▲ | ekunazanu 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > This was openai’s entire breakthrough. Making this particular model architecture larger leads to emergent capabilities Basically, the bitter lesson: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~eunsol/courses/data/bitter_lesson... |
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| ▲ | GardenLetter27 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's not just the architecture but also the data - the decoder only approach lets you train in parallel over blocks of text (no RNN serial waiting), that allows you train on much, much more data. |
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| ▲ | darksim905 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For anyone who is curious about the first paragraph here, this is actually a great video overview of how LLM works and the tokenization part. Tangentially related: This part always seemed fuzzy to me, especially when dealing with data scientists and how they talk about how 'ML' looks at problems. I had this issue when working at a SIEM vendor where they kept going on about use case development having to be designed a certain way to catch things. It was all very frustrating. |
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| ▲ | golergka 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| After building some toy LLMs on my own I came to realise that architecture is not the hard part. Train is. |
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| ▲ | pkoird 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| aka "the bitter lesson" |
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| ▲ | Gmolomo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sooooo just because you are able to understand it, it's not worth anything? It doesn't has any impact? Ah wait it does. Mh weird. Why are you not creating a startup and get rich? |
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| ▲ | sarjann an hour ago | parent [-] | | I mean there is a little something called compute. And other complexity that comes like writing code to efficiently distribute a model across machines. |
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| ▲ | faurroar 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Architectures have evolved significantly since then. DeepSeek v4 =/= GPT-3. Even then, a great deal of complexity lies in everything surrounding the architectures e.g. how do you implement them performantly on modern accelerators, how do you distribute the model across a set of accelerators, how do you post-train, etc. And pre-training itself is a dark art. If you legitimately think that frontier labs are doing something equivalent to whatever you wrote on your whiteboard, you’re clueless. |
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| ▲ | jumploops 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Those are all just optimizations. We still don’t really know why they work, we just know how to build them. | | |
| ▲ | trollbridge 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We don't really know why language works with humans, either. If you raise a baby from birth, you kind of observe how it is learning language, but the process is also rather mysterious. My eldest son's first word was to actually imitate a cow mooing, and then after that to imitate a motor noise of a tractor or truck. And then after that a meow. (His first complete sentence was "King Graham fell"...) My next child took a completely different path to language, including skipping all the non-verbal imitations. And then at some point, you just suddenly can two-way communicate with them when you couldn't before, and then after that, they can engage in reasoning. | | |
| ▲ | jumploops 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Completely agree! It’s interesting to me how similar attempting to understand LLMs is to neuroscience. “When we turn this bit off, this other thing happens… if we change these weights the Eiffel Tower is now in Rome” We’re basically just probing around and trying to reverse engineer an emergent system. To your point, this system may be quite different from model to model (human to human) although some similarities likely occur. The comment I was responding to tried to belittle the OP’s understanding of transformers, by mentioning that running an LLM at scale is much harder than the simple white board diagram. My point was simply that we don’t know why they work, and all the extra optimizations isn’t the “thing” that makes it emergent. Simply scaling the “GPT” is good enough to see it, so the OP’s awe should stand. (On a side note, what other architectures can we scale to find similar emergent behavior?) | |
| ▲ | ai_slop_hater 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Human brain capabilities are truly amazing, imagine if people didn’t treat their children as if they are stupid and didn’t constantly lie to them, because kids are stupid right, they wouldn’t understand. What heights could be reached. | | |
| ▲ | baq 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We don’t treat children like they’re stupid, we treat children like they’re children. A stupid adult is treated very differently than any child. Adults are expected to have their world models approximately correct in terms of physical environment so they won’t accidentally kill themselves by falling off a cliff; then there are the social norms which adults are expected to conform to so everyone is kinda predictable to everyone else so adults don’t kill each other too often over food or mates. Understanding of neither is expected from children. | | |
| ▲ | ai_slop_hater 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You may have been raised properly since you don’t get what I mean. I really envy kids with “Chinese parents” that had them learn math early on and not some bullshit like that if you put your tooth under your pillow, then a tooth fairy will come. | | |
| ▲ | mejutoco 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think those 2 are orthogonal. Math still works with Santa or the tooth fairy. | | |
| ▲ | ai_slop_hater 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Maybe math works but critical thinking doesn’t. There are people who have lived for many decades without ever questioning insane b.s. they were taught as kids. |
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| ▲ | beezlewax 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is possible to have learned both things you know. |
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| ▲ | pmg101 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because god forbid that childhood, the one time in your life when you don't have any responsibilities, should be fun. | | |
| ▲ | ai_slop_hater 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Waste 22 years of life without learning anything and then slave away at a 9-5 job you hate. Brilliant strategy. At least you had “fun”. Then blame billionaires or something. |
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| ▲ | otabdeveloper4 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We do know how they work. They predict the next statistically most likely token. The "bitter lesson" is that fake-it-till-you-make-it is a valid way of doing knowledge work. (Or not make it, then people will just claim you're holding the LLM wrong and it's not the AI's fault.) | | |
| ▲ | throw310822 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > statistically most likely token. Statistically most likely in what context, given which preconditions? Because each prompt sequence is unique so the probability of any token following it is unknown. |
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| ▲ | slopinthebag 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hm, I wonder if it's more that we're shocked such a simple thing (relatively speaking) can work so well. |
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| ▲ | firemelt an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| fucking well said |
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| ▲ | lowken10 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [dead] |