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9dev 2 hours ago

While I love Redis as a versatile tool for external data structures, it's still lacking in two areas IMHO:

One, it would be cool to be able to embed it, similar to sqlite, directly into applications.

Two, the HA story is so much more complicated than it should be. I totally acknowledge that concurrency and distributed computing is hard, but it should not require reading heaps of documentation and understanding two entirely separate multi-node approaches only to figure out there are lots of subtle strings attached that make it impractical for many applications.

flaghacker 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What would be the point of embedding Redis into an application? What's the advantage of using Redis over using the builtin (or third party) data structures of the language the application is developed in?

I'm asking as a non-webdev who never quite got what Redis actually does, but would love to learn.

freakynit an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Probably because Redis gives you a very well-defined/understood set of rich data structures with built-in behavior like TTL, atomic operations, eviction, and persistence. These things are otherwise usually scattered across native types, helper classes, or entirely separate libraries.

stingraycharles an hour ago | parent [-]

It doesn’t seem like the right tool for the job, though. Aren’t your own programming language’s constructs much more well-defined / understood ?

freakynit 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Language's own native data-structures are generally much more capable and vast. 99%+ developers use only a very limited set of those capabilities. This approach packages those most used ones into a nice, consistent DSL.

It's similar in effect to what busybox does to shell utilities, though the motives are different.

lpapez 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I use PHP. None of the language tools or constructs available to me are adequate.

https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/

stingraycharles 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

And you want to embed Redis inside PHP as a solution?? That’s nuts.

razighter777 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In practice, mostly scaling sessions and ephemeral data (caching) across multiple intances of a microservice on multiple machines. Seperating the kv store and the application allows upgrading each application while retaining availability and avoiding loss of session data.

noodletheworld 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why would you embed SQLite?

It’s the same use case with a different api.

A typical (meaningful) example might be communication between threads or actors in a single process, or idempotent tests.

As with SQLite, an external xxx that does this for you is certainly better, etc. but it’s convenient sometimes, to have an application that doesn’t go “now before you run this install Postgres…”.

It’s seldom useful for a web app where you control everything.

mystifyingpoi an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

For simple cases, it is probably a total overkill to even consider it, but for something heavier, embedding the database gives you a chance to trivially migrate later to a separate database server.

thefreeman an hour ago | parent [-]

Redis is not a database. It’s a key / value store.

rytis an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It kind of is a database:

A key-value database, or key-value store, is a data storage paradigm designed for storing, retrieving, and managing associative arrays, a data structure more commonly known today as a dictionary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key–value_database

theultdev an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

that's still a database.

it's not a relational database.

an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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amtamt 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Genuinely interested why we need HA in redis, just not read round robin from multiple non-HA instances? Redis (and memcache) are memory caches and should be treated like that, not like highly consistent distributed session store.

compumike an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Redis (and memcache) are memory caches and should be treated like that

If you haven't come across Kvrocks yet, it may be worth a look: https://github.com/apache/kvrocks https://kvrocks.apache.org/ . It's a database with a Redis-compatible wire protocol, but the database is stored on disk. This means your working set is not limited by RAM and can be a few orders of magnitude larger! On modern SSDs this is still very fast. I think it improves the durability story as well. But the big win is the orders of magnitude larger database space.

As I've been improving my side project https://totalrealreturns.com/ recently I've ended up using both Redis and Kvrocks together. Redis is great for small global state that needs to be super fast. Kvrocks is great for larger bulk data storage (large precomputed datasets), but also supports a lot of the Redis data structures as well as Lua scripts.

n_e 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Redis is used for plenty of things, not just memory caches.

For example if you use it for session storage, you can't have your application read from a random instance that may or may not contain the session.

tossandthrow an hour ago | parent [-]

This case is exactly what he talks about. To get HA just setup more than one redis cache - or rebuild the session if it was lost in the redis cache.

9dev 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

It’s not. Imagine a web app that stores your user information in a session store, mapped by your cookie-provided session ID. Your web app searches redis 1 for the session id, but since that key is on redis 2, the lookup fails and the application thinks there is no such session, and rejects the request.

Now you could solve this specific case by sharding by prefix, or by querying all instances, but then you still do not have high availability: if the instance a specific session is on is down, these users cannot authenticate. At that point you’re better off with a single instance.

olavgg 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

But that is his point. If you cannot find the session id in redis, you login again. If your Redis server crash, you start a new one and everyone just login again. No data is lost.

9dev 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sure the data is lost. A session commonly holds arbitrary state, and even if it’s just the login information. This is ridiculous.

9dev 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Redis doesn't necessarily have to be used as a cache. Streams, for example, make it a great message queue; but a single-node message queue is a single point of failure and thus not viable for many setups.

acejam an hour ago | parent [-]

That's why you run Redis Sentinel in production

9dev 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

That you do. Until you realise that there is only a single writer in that scenario, it doesn’t address any sharding concerns, you need to use compatible clients that opt into the sentinel protocol, during failover you’ll see client errors… there’s lots of room for improvement on redis HA.

lukaslalinsky 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

With the amount of problems I had using Redis Sentinel, I really wish there was another way. On multiple occasions, with completely different deployments, it got itself into a non-repairable state where the only option was to drop it and setup the replicas manually. I was hoping someone would do a Patroni-like project for Redis, but I've not found it yet. I've moved all persistent data to PostgreSQL and use a number of Valkeys behind Envoy proxy as a cache.

__s 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Years ago I enabled durability on redis & used it as database for an online card game