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imtringued 2 hours ago

>This all costs the index funds, because every dollar of profit for the other firms is a dollar out of the pocket of the end investor.

This is so wrong I'm not sure you understand common sense economics and by economics I don't mean anything you can find in a text book. If I invest nothing, the other investors or traders can still make a profit without costing me anything.

Opportunity costs are never real costs. If I have $10, and the traders do weird things with the prices and I don't spend the $10 on anything, I still have $10. The traders failed to cost me.

You're also ignoring the underlying issue which is that the valuation of SpaceX on the open market is different than the valuation it could get from forcing index funds to buy in early. If the stock is worthless then short sellers will make money, but short selling only works if the short sellers don't get squeezed. If the passive funds buy two weeks in, then early traders know that they can sell to a greater fool at inflated prices. Any short seller who is trying to discover the true price will stay back and short directly after the indexes have bought. That's the perfect moment for them. They want the post IPO hype and bull market, only for the stock to collapse within a year.

dmurray 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There's a real desire out there to tell a narrative where SpaceX is a massively fraudulent piece of financial engineering, a pump and dump scam where the stock will "collapse within a year" and retail investors will be left holding the bag.

There's definitely some financial engineering at the margins, but as I see it the facts are:

- Musk is still going to own 40% of the company. If he's selling 4% of it, his incentives are aligned with keeping the rest of it high

- the index funds ultimately are fast tracking the big IPOs because their customers, in aggregate, want that. And the market structure really has changed since the days when the index inclusion rules were first written and companies went public smaller.

- People have been banging the same drum about short sellers with Tesla since at least 2017 - AFAIK it's still one of the most shorted stocks - and it's up 20x since then.

- Institutional investors with more sophisticated strategies than "buy the index" or "pump and dump lol sell to the index funds" will be participating in the IPO and in fact will be the main drivers of price. Everything I've seen suggests that if this is a "retail heavy" IPO, that means 20 or 30% of the shares ending up with retail instead of a more typical 10. These other institutions could be wrong, but they're not mechanical price takers.

I've shown above how one of the effects people make the most noise about - the index balancing arbitrage - is likely an effect of order of magnitude 1%. It's on the noisemakers to show how any of the other effects you mention can be massively more impactful.