You don't need to join a union to push back against unethical feature requests.

jakubadamw 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The collective leverage of a union gives you significantly more power to do something like this.

Only if the union is against the unethical request. In some cases the union may be for it, which makes it even harder to push back.

	▲	jackb4040 5 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Fellow software engineers aren't incentivized to destroy their company's reputation in the same way that boards of directors have proven to be time and time again.

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chrncirurp 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> You don't need to join a union to push back against unethical feature requests.

If you push back against unethical feature requests:

No union: you get fired

Union: you still get fired

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dzikimarian 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe don't apply to Meta in the first place? With their track record it's pretty obvious that you'll be part of building something morally dubious.

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jeffgreco 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Still a better outcome than tossing your ethics overboard.

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garciasn 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Why bother to join a union, pay dues, potentially have your career limited, and have another layer to deal with?

Just leave or be fired without the song and dance.

	▲	HWR_14 3 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		How would your career be limited?
	▲	Henchman21 10 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		Because you’re a person who cares about your fellow citizens and realize that collectively bargaining helps to lift all boats, not just yours
	▲	josefritzishere 10 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		union strong, bro.

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woodrowbarlow 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

maybe, but the union could provide a lot of services to someone who loses their job this way (like income insurance and legal services) and could leverage collective power over companies that demonstrate a pattern of behavior.

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dylan604 11 hours ago | parent [-]

This is something that has just never sat well with me. How exactly will the union provide this insurance? That insurance isn't free, so paid for by member dues? How many members are required to be able to afford the payout for just one member? How about the other services unions are touted as being able to provide? They all come from the same dues? I know that unions will put money into investment funds to attempt to grow the coffers, but that just means the money isn't liquid.

Unions are always touted as a panacea, but logically, it doesn't compute for me. They feel more like ponzi schemes than anything else.

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woodrowbarlow 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

that's definitely a big question and i don't pretend to have enough expertise to answer fully; however, i will point to the Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan which is (per Wikipedia[1]) "one of the world's largest institutional investors [...] over $266 billion in net assets, with a one-year total-fund net return of 9.4%, and a 7.4% 10-year total-fund net return". the union runs their own investment fund; it's an extension of collective power into the financial realm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Teachers%27_Pension_Pl...

	▲	hluska 10 hours ago \| parent [-]
		That is only a pension plan. It provides no insurance to teachers who are still employed.

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prmoustache 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> This is something that has just never sat well with me. How exactly will the union provide this insurance? That insurance isn't free, so paid for by member dues?

That is how all unions were born.

	▲	dylan604 10 hours ago \| parent [-]
		That's great insight. Thanks for contributing.

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askl 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> That insurance isn't free, so paid for by member dues?

Yes, obviously. That's how every insurance works.

	▲	dylan604 10 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Yes, obviously. A question not asked as assumed a natural part of the thinking process is how many members does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? Just because other unions exists does not mean that the one that techBro Norma Rae starts is going to remain viable. How many claims can be paid out before the insurance no longer pays out? Lots of conversation left after your trite yes obviously unhelpful comment

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soco 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Simple idea: look how other unions work, and in other countries as well. The wheel has already been invented.

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dylan604 10 hours ago | parent [-]

You can say that about a lot of things. The car was already invented, but so many new car companies struggle. Just because a thing exists does not mean someone else can come along to immediately become successful with thing.

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soco 7 hours ago | parent [-]

The question as I took it was "I can't imagine how this can work". Interpreting it as anything else is defeatism and I won't entertain that.

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dylan604 7 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not defeatism. It's doing the research to avoid unnecessary failure from over ambitiousness getting in the way of doing something the right way. This isn't a Show HN situation where you go and get some VC funding and yolo your way through it. This is something that if it's not done right it could have a greater blast radius than some VC funded startup shutting down with a "What we've learned" blog post.

	▲	soco 7 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Makes sense, but I haven't seen in the comments the signs of research having been done. Or maybe you were hoping that I am doing the research for you, while you brainstorm how it can't work? I am an union member, albeit not in the US, and for me it looks fine. Sample size of 1, but a sample which says it does work. Take this information as you wish.

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grayhatter 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I didn't get fired.