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honeycrispy 3 hours ago

Can someone explain to me why we should continue to pay to track these currents? Genuine question.

steve_adams_86 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Where I work we research some environmental data like ocean temperature (at depth and at surface), currents, acidity, salinity, and oxygen content. Most of this occurs at the surface, but a lot occurs via CTD (many depths) and autonomous drones along the continental shelf in BC, Canada.

You'd think this stuff isn't worth monitoring, but it paints a very interesting picture of where things were, where they are now, and where they're going.

We also do experiments on key species of the food web, analyze environmental DNA to see what's present and where, and generally try to figure out what this data says about living things and how they will handle these changes.

The bottom line is that something as significant as ocean currents will have massive implications for crucial things like transport, food, agriculture, and more.

This stuff is integral to the stability of everything you care about.

And it's not looking great. Acidity is increasing, temperature is increasing, oxygen is decreasing, food webs are transforming; we need to know what this means ASAP, and we need to figure out how to adapt. This isn't your kids' kid's problems alone. You will likely experience impacts in your lifetime.

A simple example: fat, nutrient-rich foundational species of the BC Coast's food web are gradually decreasing in population and presence, being replaced by less nutrient-dense species from warmer climates. Countless juvenile fish which underpin our commercial fishery stocks depend on the richer, more nutritious species to thrive. This could impact their populations and lead to even more expensive fish; and we're talking about species which were plentiful and affordable in my lifetime. As those species decrease in quantity, the higher trophic levels suffer as well. This will be reflected in countless ways.

We need to measure this stuff because it's the beating heart of our planet, and it's changing for the worse (as far as our well-being is concerned).

mbgerring 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can you think of any economically valuable reason why it might be important to know about weather trends or events in advance? Any at all?

mothballed 2 hours ago | parent [-]

If it's economically valuable wouldn't the evil capitalist bastards squeeze their reserves or peasants a little drier to create their little money printing weather trend predictor? Or you mean it's economically valuable but negative or low ROI?

andrewflnr an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Are you not aware of any instances where "evil capitalist bastards" fail to act in their own long term interest? If not, then you might want to pay more attention.

DangitBobby 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You'd think that but the evil capitalist bastards generally think one financial quarter at a time and will absolutely dismantle the long-term prospects of just about anything if it gets them some shiny nickels.

x-complexity 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

...Unironically in complete agreement.

If the data is economically valuable, mbgerring, then the private market and aligned states/charities should be the ones shouldering the costs.

2 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
jakelazaroff 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Let's say you're an evil capitalist bastard. How would you capture that value?

mothballed 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Surely you're not proposing it is uncapturable economic value. That's not economics. As for the mechanics, first we have to hear what they were thinking about the substance of that value was. That's not my assertion, but rather the question posed by the persons I was replying too -- but virtually by definition economics involves the topic of capturable valuable. If it is not capturable value then I don't see how it's economic value.

But lets say, for the hell of it, we take a wild guess and presume that to be economically valuable it has to be if not easily tradeable at least actionable, but for whatever reason the hypothetical here is it's only useful in the US if the government does it. I would presume, though not propose, they could sell it to US enemies, such as China. Now I am not promoting treasonous activities, but I'm quite sure, some capitalists would happily do them.

mindslight 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Un-centrally-captureable value that remains distributed is very much economic value. You seem to be falling for the efficient market fallacy.

mothballed an hour ago | parent [-]

If it's actually usable economically then the government will partially recover (capture value) it via taxation. If US suppliers fail to match the predicted effects, then Chinese or other suppliers can. This yields tax receipts in China and elsewhere. So if it's actually 'distributable' then it is worth at least some non-zero capturable amount as sales to foreign governments if the US government will not be participating, even if you suppose no private entities will buy the information.

mindslight an hour ago | parent [-]

It seems you're still assuming market efficiency, but just focusing on governments as the actors.

awepofiwaop 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This comment seems to presuppose that the "evil capitalists" are infallible.

People can be bad at their jobs and/or can act irrationally.

generj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because it would be really nice to know if some of the currents collapse when it happens rather than months later.

Even beyond that immediate need, the oceans are incredibly poorly studied and are of massive economic and military value to the United States. Baseline statistics on currents could be very useful for all kinds of as yet unknown science and applications. Countries that run a big navy do ocean science. It’s a form of dual purpose funding that benefits both civilian and military ships.

AlotOfReading 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because the other responses are incredulously focused at why someone would ask such a dumb question, the answer is that oceans affect everyone's lives.

Ocean currents and temperatures are major factors in storms, economic activity like trade, and ecosystems across the country. Monitoring them costs virtually nothing, and the benefits are huge.

cjonas 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The system, which began operating in 2016, was designed to run for at least 25 years

It's likely that a majority of the cost to collect the data has already been paid for...

Helloworldboy 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[dead]

ufocia 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Evidence?

Rebelgecko 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The system cost like $350 million to build, and $40m/year to operate+maintain. Sending ships to remove 900+ pieces of hardware under 2 miles of ocean won't be cheap either.

IIAOPSW 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://awakenedcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/share...

postflopclarity 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

because it is useful information for the public benefit, and not very expensive.

ufocia 3 hours ago | parent [-]

What does it mean to be not expensive? How much do all the not very expensive endeavors as up to?

steve_adams_86 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Buoys with sensors, CTDs, and satellite data cost mere millions and are often supported by NGOs, indigenous communities, and even schools. They're a good deal, so to speak. We learn tremendous amounts from them, they provide learning opportunities for new scientists, they provide useful data to the transport industry, and so on. These are not things that are too expensive to maintain. These are things you decommission because you're ideologically opposed to them.

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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nielsbot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

honestly, who gives a shit?

the US spends AT LEAST $1T/year on military—and a lot of that is used to murder a lot of innocent people just minding their own business. Cut the military budget in half to start and then complain about reckless spending.

I’ll also add: abruptly killing programs costs more than it saves. The DOGE fiasco at USAID for example—the unruly unwinding of their finances incurred huge financial penalties. (I listened to an interview with a USAID whistleblower. It may have been interest payments?)

These ignorant and greedy billionaires destroying the people’s government based on vibes… a sick joke.

FireBeyond 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

> the US spends AT LEAST $1T/year on military

The DOD has just requested a new budget of $1.5T for the military.

AuthAuth 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

a spec on the budget compared to retiree support, military and healthcare.

fragmede 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Doesn't mean we shouldn't be frugal with how the money is spent. (I think this move is stupid.)

3eb7988a1663 an hour ago | parent [-]

The cheapest option would be to leave them in place and stop monitoring. Removing them is costly, but prevents anyone from ever re-initiating the buoys. Like when they told NASA to burn up a weather satellite they did not like.

avmich 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So the currents will continue to be tracked, no? :) Seriously, we should find out why this system was desired and created in the first place to answer this question. Good question...

ehnto 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The answer in general is we monitor things to understand them, so we know how they will affect us. Same thing we do for all the metrics that allow us to forecast the weather every week.

emodendroket 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because the information could sensibly inform public policy, potentially has serious effects on everyone, and doesn't obviously lend itself to private actors paying for its collection because there's no great way to monetize it. Though I wonder how genuine the question really is.

fooqux 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because if they suddenly stop, it will quite likely have devastating repercussions for the entire globe. Weather patterns (which also effects food growing), sea life (more food), and probably some other non-food related things too!

wahnfrieden 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Won’t markets adjust to that though. Market needs will lead to just-in-time innovation! If not, then victims can sue after damages incurred to recover their losses.

2 hours ago | parent [-]
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qsera 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, it might be like watching Trump (or really all the news). If you keep at it 24x7 you ll feel that the sky will fall down in a couple of days.

But if you stop watching him for like a month, nothing of consequence happens (mostly).

Maybe these current watching is like that. If you keep looking at it,too closely and because we don't know all the variables, may be we keep making wrong "doomsday" predictions every time something moves. I have observed that this shows up in many places where we don't really know how things work..

I would much prefer if someone closely monitor the level of poisons and pesticides in the food and water we consume. For example, every store should be visited by a government agencey to collect samples and test them for poison levels...

Ar-Curunir 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

First of all, science is good in and of itself. Second of all, this science in particular seems helpful to predict the impact of potentially disastrous climate change.

yoyohello13 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Obvs That money is much better spent helping those poor ‘victims’ of ‘lawfare’

drfloyd51 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

jbxntuehineoh 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

dalyons 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

650REDHAIR 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I, for one, only care about increasing shareholder profit.