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turzmo 11 hours ago

Much of math (or science) research has the strange quality of being mostly curiosity-driven, but having giant benefits that occasionally spin out to the public.

Some questions are more urgent and practical. My feeling is that the more directly practical a question is, the more likely the research community is to support AI usage in that question.

The annoying thing about recent AI advances is that they target questions on the wrong end of the spectrum: Erdos problems are exactly the sort of "useless" questions that people might answer purely for the love of the game. The sort of questions that a young person might cut their teeth on and gain confidence.

Solving questions like these automatically, I think, is not good for the long-term health of research. At least for the foreseeable future you still would like people to become interested and develop skills in these fields. These developments, and especially how they are presented, directly discourage that.

math_dandy 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

To me, the most interesting feature of the OpenAI solution of the Unit Distance (Erdös) Problem is that the solution - using deep algebraic number theory as a source of extremal combinatorial/geometric constructions - is much more interesting than the problem’s elementary statement might lead one to expect.

Writing off Erdös’s problems as random, useless, or meaningless dismisses his mathematical intuition, second-to-none, and strikes me as somewhat uncharitable.

Finally, I agree that AI threatens mathematical training by rendering an entire class of acolyte-level research problems solvable by prompt. But the Unit Distance Problem is not of this class.

turzmo 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think Erdos problems are useless myself, I put "useless" in quotes to emphasize that they are the sort of research that doesn't have an immediate application, and so their automated resolution should be weighed against the sociological cost.

As opposed to, say, drug discovery.

danbruc 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am not a mathematician and did not read the unit distance solution too carefully, but my impression was that it used a variation of a known technique to solve the problem. And that makes perfect sense to me, there are a lot of techniques and lot of less relevant problems, I am not surprised that one can solve some of them with known techniques that just nobody has tried [hard enough] before. I am much more sceptical when it come to the important unsolved problems where every known technique has probably been tried several times over. In those instances it will probably take a true leap in understanding to solve them and I am sceptical that large language models are well suited for that because of the way they work.

pfdietz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> much more interesting than the problem’s elementary statement might lead one to expect

This is reinforced by the immediate (human) use of the idea to resolve in the negative another significant problem, the sum-product conjecture on reals.

Explanation of what was involved: https://www.erdosproblems.com/forum/thread/blog:6

azeirah an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you not think that solutions to erdos problems might end up stepping stones to other important problems?

Either by introducing new tools, or by proving things that were previously unproven that end up helping in unexpected ways?

That's often how math goes, isn't it?

math_dandy 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

This is, indeed, how math often goes.

BigGreenJorts 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sounds like yet another example of how AI is kneecapping industries from the bottom by "removing the barrier to entry" but really just removing the training path by doing the work itself with no guidance for juniors.

brador 10 hours ago | parent [-]

We are on tiny 1-5T parameter models with local power stations.

We can reach Q models just by throwing resources at it. That’s a million times current B models.

jazzyjackson 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You cannot think fast enough when your wires are kilometers long. The only way up is in, and silicon transistors just cannot compete with density with biologic brains, ergo, super intelligence is a pipe dream

bdamm 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is this a known or quantifiable thing? I thought that the limit had already been determined i.e. the existing models top out and at some point it doesn't matter how much time or energy you let the model consume, it won't improve the result. And with regards to training parameters, I thought we were equally limited there, e.g. the existing models can't benefit from a larger parameter space.

I was under the impression that improvements are arriving via how the models are trained and how model prompting context is constructed, rather than just by how much data or how much energy is spent searching over the model space for a particular prompt.

Is there some evidence that we have not reached a pleateau with just resource consumption on existing models?

yieldcrv 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's an interesting perspective and I wholly disagree with the conclusion

You are saying that tough problems with no applicability are useful because people that you happen to respect got good by their curiosity and pursuit of trying to solve these kinds of problems and failing, but branching off into other cognitive areas as mathematicians

Now if I know anything about math for the sake of math, and academics, these are the same people that lament the idea of intelligent people going to the finance sector or any other trade they just happen not to respect as much

The similarity being that their exact criticism of why, something they don't respect and view as having little utility, is the exact reasoning presented here now that AI can solve their pointless problems

What I'm seeing is that human mathematicians have a laundry list of problems they have failed to solve for decades, centuries, which is what they are funded and employed to do. "Computer" used to a human job title too.

This leads me to being excited about AI one-shotting these problems, let move on to something else.

4 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
ccppurcell 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think you've slightly straw manned the lamentation there. Not that I agree with the lamentation, but using your talent to make the rich richer (which is what quants do, they are paid a fixed amount to provide a larger value up the chain), as opposed to advancing human knowledge, is the reason for the lament, not some sort of respectability issue.

le-mark 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

Quants benefit from substantial bonus structure as part of their compensation.