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jgbuddy 3 hours ago

You are making the assumption that the models are only used / paid for by 2.5% of the population (your knowledge workers value). There will be new value created by these models which people are happy to pay for which simply did not exist at all before. It is also naive to say that the hyperscalers are going to be expecting a return on this in 5 years, it will be entirely propped up by investments / IPOs as has been the case with any tech company for decades now to reach scale. The hyperscalers are currently spending ~650b combined annually, which they have the cash for and can sell in future compute instantly.

specproc 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm sorry, what the feck does "value creation" mean here? I live in a place where people are so, insanely squeezed from every angle. Wages are stagnant, prices rocketing. Where is the money to pay for this value going to come from?

No one I know feels richer than they did a decade back. I've not been able to meaningfully put up my prices for a decade. People are tired and stressed and scared, particularly scared of a technology everyone keeps telling them will make them redundant.

There is no rising tide lifting all boats, just most of us drowning whilst a few whizz past in their yachts.

I honestly hope these guys faceplant ASAP. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people.

dirck-norman 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Feelings aren’t fact. A lot of data shows the doomerism is not reflected in the actual numbers and much of it has to do with rapid inflation and continued vibes.

Consumption has risen, inflation adjusted wages have risen for blue collar and white collar alike. Most social mobility has been the middle class moving into the upper middle class, not moving to the lower class.

The main thing holding people back is the housing crisis. This is orthogonal to the value creation of businesses.

Value creation is growth. If it didn’t exist the S&P would still be 42.55$.

geraneum an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Feelings aren’t fact... much of it has to do with rapid inflation and "continued vibes".

Oh the lost irony.

jacobgkau an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> Consumption has risen, inflation adjusted wages have risen for blue collar and white collar alike.

My wages haven't risen for nearly 5 years, while inflation has occurred over the past 5 years. Why the blanket statements?

> The main thing holding people back is the housing crisis. This is orthogonal to the value creation of businesses.

Are you suggesting a "housing crisis," in your words, wouldn't impact consumption? I'm watching my spending (and living like a child in his parent's house, except it's not my parent and I have to pay for it) in the hopes that in about a decade, I'll have saved up enough of a down payment for a home somewhere in my state that I could actually afford the mortgage on the remaining amount. There are plenty of things I'd potentially spend money on but won't as long as I feel like I'm economically stuck and have a chance in hell of saving my way out of it. So this feeling translates to fact.

If you think my personal experience is just an anecdote and doesn't count because it's not being told through the lens of large-scale numbers, fine. But I really agree with the person you replied to that you're gonna have to be a whole lot more specific than "value creation" if you want people to spend money on your AI products "in this economy," whether it's because they're actually strapped for cash or just pretending like you seem to think they are.

WarmWash 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sounds like internet sentiment and not research data.

It's kind of become socially taboo to not be suffering "in this economy", but on paper it's hard to see weakness in places that there isn't always weakness. As long as the 65-95% are doing well, there isn't going to be a collapse.

forlorn_mammoth 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The most recent U Michigan 'Survey of Consumer Sentiment', which is THE authorative source in the US, shows consumer sentiment at the lowest levels since the survey started in 1977

From the U Michigan page: https://www.sca.isr.umich.edu/

or from the FED https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/UMCSENT

jgbuddy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A literal example is that I can use AI to file my taxes instead of spending a weekend and hundreds of dollars to have an accountant do it for me. It costs me like $5. that 245$ delta is the value of that output to me, as long as I am confident it is correct.

mfuzzey 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Seems to be a thing in the US to need specialised software, an accountant or AI to file taxes.

In most of Europe individuals at least don't need any of that. I'm in France and it's just a connection to a government run website to enter a few figures, takes less than an hour most of it is already pre-entered (salary etc), the main thing to add manually is charitable donations.

If you're running a business then yes an accountant can be good (or be required depending on the legal form of the business) but not for individuals.

asdff 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Taxes are one of those things that seem difficult and people reach for tooling or expertise without trying initially without, but are pretty easy to do yourself just filling out the forms.

moduspol an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Part of the value of paying an accountant is that you can get representation in case you are audited. Though I guess you did say you were confident it is correct.

panta an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think that to sum things up, we will have to wait until we can evaluate the cost of the mistakes. You could be lucky but you could also end up with a very negative output value in the longer time frame.

WarmWash 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I did my taxes this year too with 5.5 and 3.1

Otherwise normally costs around $800 to do, because I have a small business too.

smnc 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> as long as I am confident it is correct

Are you? Does it cost you extra (time or money) to be?

jgbuddy 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, and they were accepted. A year or two ago I would have been less confident but now almost UX is happy to cite sources.

redfern314 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Not speaking to the wisdom of filing taxes using LLMs, but just FYI (assuming US here) taxes being accepted doesn't mean they were correct. It just means the IRS hasn't found anything major wrong (e.g. SSN used on multiple returns). Even being approved isn't a guarantee, an audit could come later.

topaz0 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

Even if an audit never comes they could be incorrect.

28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
deaton 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Thats the thing; the "increase in productivity" isn't being felt by the general public, the end user. If your "increase in productivity" just means more money being shifted around at the corporate level then it is meaningless.

mrandish 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There will be new value created by these models which people are happy to pay for which simply did not exist at all before.

True, but I think the GP's point was that what consumers will pay won't be nearly as profitable as what enterprises will pay to increase the output of their developers and knowledge workers. ChatGPT is currently the overwhelming leader in consumer AI usage but only ~5% pay $20/mo.

As a recently retired serial tech founder, I'm now one of those consumers. I use AI webchat daily for general search, Q&A and even to write little automation scripts for myself, yet I haven't paid anyone anything for AI yet. Even after being heavily restricted and performance nerfed to hell in recent months, free webchat AI is still fine for everything I do, and I'm not remotely price sensitive.

Even as AI compute costs fall over time, I doubt serving ads against AI webchat to consumers will generate the kind of high-margin, sustainable growth VCs get excited about. It's so undifferentiated I bounce around between all four leading providers because there's virtually no moat locking casual consumers to any chatbot beyond a single question thread. I guess if it had a nearly infinite context window seamlessly integrated across all sessions, that might be somewhat sticky for some consumers but it could also get creepy for some others - and it would devour gobs of the scarcest resource in AI. Beyond Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the mobile phone is the largest revenue, long-term mass consumer product ever but I just got a new flagship phone from a top-tier provider for $30/mo over 3 yrs. IMHO, even an all-you-can-eat, infinite context window, next-gen Mythos couldn't reach and sustain mobile phone levels of global consumer adoption at ~$20/mo. Unlike professional developers and knowledge workers, consumers don't have any "job to be done" big enough for an LLM to command that much of their zero-sum discretionary spend.

jgbuddy 2 hours ago | parent [-]

100%, a driving factor will likely be how good we can make models that are so small they use almost no compute. Until then it is a race for adoption and moat-building (or screwing people over?) once you have users

Planktonne 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There will be new value created by these models which people are happy to pay for which simply did not exist at all before

What sort of new value, and why will people pay for it from someone else rather than prompting for it themselves?

PunchyHamster an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

But will they pay big actors running top end models for that? You don't need latest openai or anthropic model to go thru your mails, get summary of the some products from web, or to do your to-do list.

The AI might very well be used by noticeable % of population daily, but that doesn't mean they will be paying trillion dollars to the leading US AI companies