| ▲ | yardie 9 hours ago |
| One of the tools we use was bought by PE last summer. When it was time to renew our support contract had tripled in price. I use it across 10 projects so our costs went from $200k to $500k. I let our account manager know this was unacceptable but even his hands were tied. Cancelled those contracts and let them know we were retooling with a competing tool and opensource to fill those gaps. The impression I got was we weren't the only ones. Sales were getting squeezed between customers bailing and PE management wanting to stay the course. I've seen PE make businesses more efficient by reviewing all contracts and dropping or renegotiating ones that no longer align. Closing product lines that aren't profitable. But that is year 1-2. By year 3 they start the squeeze, layoffs, asset selloffs (stripping), and lowering quality, raising prices. That is where the real teeth of wolf are shown. |
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| ▲ | MisterTea 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > When it was time to renew our support contract had tripled in price. Currently in PE hell myself. Company I work for was bought out few years ago when the owner cashed out. Right out of the gate it was a numbers go up game. New sales person was hired and their first order of business was - drum roll please - triple prices! Customers balked. Some walked. In addition, some employee benefits evaporated, vacation time cut drastically, shitty health insurance switch, employee perks like the monthly pizza Fridays were canned as if ~$500/mo in pizza was going to bankrupt the company. Meanwhile, employee morale is at an all time low and quality has faded. Perhaps there is good PE out there. Somewhere. All I see are vampires. |
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| ▲ | generic92034 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, that is typical for a certain kind of management. Only costs that are visible and easily measurable are taken into account. Invisible costs or costs that are hard to measure are ignored, even though they may amount to a whole lot, up to the ruin of the company. Employee motivation is one example for the second type of costs, while the 500 bucks per month for pizza were easily seen and cut. | | | |
| ▲ | dickersnoodle 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'd have said ghouls. At least vampires are sexy... |
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| ▲ | cameronh90 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is just the design of a PE fund. They run on a fixed cycle, so early on they heavily invest into their portfolio with the aim of resolving that risk and maximising the sale value by the end of the cycle. In principle, I don't think there's anything wrong with this. All investment expects a ROI over some time horizon. Public companies do the same thing. Anyone who founds a start-up is doing it too. The only real distinguishing feature of PE is how successful they have become at aggressively optimising for market value. The issue is that the sale value at the end of the cycle can be massively influenced by cynical financial engineering. This seems to me to be more of an issue with how every institutional investor apparently now prices companies purely on reductive metrics like EBITDA x the industry standard multiple. The cause of the rot is widespread over-confidence in dumb financialization models shaping the system. (Or, since it's HN: if your machine learning model is training well, but misaligned with real life: do you blame AdamW?) |
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| ▲ | mcphage 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > how successful they have become at aggressively optimising for market value They use money to turn value into money, which they then use to turn more value, into more money. And in the end, they have a lot of money, and all of the value is gone. | | |
| ▲ | cameronh90 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's only possible if the financial system is valuing things systematically incorrectly. IFF a company is truly, honest to god, less valuable than the sum of its parts, then it (or the subset that would have more value to someone else) SHOULD be dismantled, and those resources sold and reallocated to more productive use. You probably make these sorts of decisions in the capacity of your own personal finances without even thinking about it. On the other hand (and what I believe is likely happening is) if cynical financial engineering is allowing you to turn a useful company that's valued poorly by the market into a useless company that's is paradoxically highly valued by the market, in the short term, and that keeps happening over and over again, then the tools used to calculate the market value are wrong. This is illustrated by how PE commonly trashes trusted brands. A brand doesn't show up in your EBITDA. If you trash a brand quickly enough by cutting costs and quality, some institutional sucker will buy the company because they haven't clocked that the current EBITDA is elevated due to asymmetry in how quickly the costs come off and how quickly the revenue falls off after burning the brand. They've simply valued the company wrong. | | |
| ▲ | 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | everybodyknows 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > some institutional sucker will buy the company What sort of institutions would try to take on operating such a business? And when does word get around, and the pool of suckers dry up? | |
| ▲ | mcphage 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > That's only possible if the financial system is valuing things systematically incorrectly. Well… yeah. I mean, it seems clear that the market is pretty bad at valuing companies. At the very least, valuations are based on a combination of (a) measurable attributes, and (b) vibes. (a) will always be incomplete, and runs into all of the same measurement problems that everything else does. And (b) is really unreliable. Plus, PE companies are not especially interested in long timelines, whereas companies can eventually provide a lot more value that they’re worth right now. And that’s not even getting into situations where they own enough of the market to not care about losing customers. | |
| ▲ | freejazz 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >That's only possible if the financial system is valuing things systematically incorrectly. ...have you looked around? Some of the biggest companies in our economy basically just serve ads... |
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| ▲ | mint5 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | “ In principle, I don't think there's anything wrong with this. All investment expects a ROI over some time horizon” Huh? Why is there nothing wrong? Yes they wouldn’t make the investment if they didn’t think they had a way to get ROI, but how does that entitle them to one at any cost or make it necessarily moral? As an extreme example, If I invest to create a company that is clearly exploitive and addictive, nothing is wrong in principle and I’m entitled to my roi? | | |
| ▲ | cameronh90 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Bringing morality into it opens a whole can of worms that I don't think we have the tools to answer. My view is companies don't have a conscience, and any expectation that they are going to independently act with moral righteousness is unrealistic. Any perceived conscience is either for marketing (green/pinkwashing), or the sum of the morals of their owners multiplied by their willingness to exert any moral authority over the company. Besides, if you try to imagine a company having an independent conscience, what even would that conscience be based in? I'm vegetarian and think it's immoral to eat meat, but obviously I'd be insane to expect companies to divest from meat based on my peculiar moral position. In most cases, people do not exert any moral authority over anything they own. Do you actively select your pension investments based on your morality and vote in the shareholder meetings? If you do, I'm genuinely pleased and happy that someone is. But the reality is most people don't give their investments any thought beyond "line goes up", so companies end up acting as ROI maximisers. So: the main way we enforce morality on companies is ultimately the government. If you want companies to act morally, you set the rules such that an ROI depends on following our democratically agreed set of regulations. Maybe that even harms economic growth but we still consider it worth it (which is typically how we think in Europe, but look at our economies are doing!). However, the company and its investors are still acting as ROI maximisers. | | |
| ▲ | mint5 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | That is a baffling response, no one suggested corporations have consciousness. The poster said “I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this” are they a corporation? If they are, apparently they do have consciousness because they say “I think” And yes some people do in fact try to vote with their dollars. Canadians are doing it plenty right now for an easy example. That companies’ sole purpose is to maximize shareholder value, usually near term, is basically a toxic social construct and fairly recent. It’s not grounded in anything other than greed. |
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| ▲ | alexpotato 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > By year 3 they start the squeeze, layoffs, asset selloffs (stripping), and lowering quality, raising prices. That is where the real teeth of wolf are shown. To play devil's advocate: Doesn't this also open the market to new entrants? e.g. young person looking to start a HVAC company in the old days couldn't compete with the established firm that already had contracts and the local market wasn't big enough for two players. If the established firm gets bought by PE and driven into the ground, wouldn't the newer more nimble firm now have a better competitive market position? |
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| ▲ | roenxi 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, if it is possible. The issue when economic strip mining becomes the best strategy are usually from somewhere deeper in the system. It wouldn't be a shock if the root cause was some inane regulatory decision that means the market isn't being allowed to reach a sensible equilibrium. | |
| ▲ | the_sleaze_ 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As long as customers choose services based on quality. The HVAC for example - the large firms around you do not run HVAC/plumbing/electrical, they run marketing companies that happen to schedule and bill H+P+E service appointments. That being said I've never heard or encountered a single services company in the US that can't find business, in fact it's the opposite. They're trying not to drown themselves in front of a fire hose. | | |
| ▲ | mbesto 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > As long as customers choose services based on quality. If the market doesn't reward this then maybe quality isn't important to the customer. Could be price, location, availability, etc. - PE can absolutely create that value even when they roll up 70% of your local HVAC market. | |
| ▲ | quickthrowman an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The HVAC for example - the large firms around you do not run HVAC/plumbing/electrical, they run marketing companies that happen to schedule and bill H+P+E service appointments. Maybe if you’re talking about the small residential market, that’s not where the money is. The large HVAC/Electrical/Plumbing contractors in my area all perform their own work, including the one I work for. Large contractors do commercial and industrial work, not service calls for homeowners. Doing service calls homeowners sounds like a nightmare, personally. Bain Capital just bought Service Logic which is a holding company for HVAC contractors. They own a couple of the local HVAC shops and they all have their own PMs, sales, estimating, and field staff. |
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| ▲ | xboxnolifes 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Unless the new company ends up more competitive than the pre-PE company, does it matter? Thats not a good outcome, thats just a period of bad time between 2 good times. | |
| ▲ | cyberax 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A lot of markets can't support more than a couple of competitors. And in many cases, you can't easily open a new company because of upfront expenses. E.g.: an emergency room. | | |
| ▲ | alexpotato 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is true but to use your example of an emergency room: It's not uncommon in more rural areas to find a business that is essentially "more than an urgent care but less than an emergency room". e.g. they aren't doing trauma surgery but they can deal with broken limbs, severe lacerations etc that an urgent care couldn't handle. My point is that while it's true that there are "step functions" in certain services, this is not always the case. | |
| ▲ | bell-cot 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | When it's an essential service for "everyone", and the economics make healthy competition unworkable, the traditional solutions have been municipal ownership and publicly regulated utilities. Those include Fire Departments, Water & Sewer Dept's, Electric & Gas companies, ... | | |
| ▲ | alexpotato 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Those include Fire Departments I remember watching a discussion about privatizing the local fire department aka the town pays a private company to run the fire department. Opposition folks use the line: "You used to have a shield on your building that denoted you had paid for fire coverage. The old fire departments would drive past the unshielded buildings while fighting the fires." (this is, of course, no longer the case but love to mention this discussion when ever privatization comes up) | | |
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| ▲ | hermitcrab an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >One of the tools we use Does it begin with A and end with X? ;0) |
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| ▲ | Melatonic 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Seems like their might be an opportunity to start a private equity that buys extracted software businesses for pennies on the dollar and then revive those businesses with actually valuable (to the customer) practices Or maybe by then nobody trusts the name of the original company and it's just useless |
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| ▲ | gopher_space 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sharp fast-movers poached the extracted software business' last remaining reliable clients and clueful devs while you typed that post. It is now worth its weight in Herman Millers. |
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| ▲ | mmooss 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| In this case, why doesn't someone else see a market opportunity and sell competing tools for less? |
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| ▲ | nwatson 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Medium / large companies won't take the risk on smaller operations selling a new focused tool unless it's a major pain point. They'll pay more for less risk, assuming the PE-managed company will go out of their way with account management to address all their concerns. AVGO/Broadcom in some way acts like a big PE firm, rolling up other software companies, integrating them into their huge suite of offerings, ousting the new integrated offering's competing tools from the customers environments and selling the increment, and cutting off smaller customers not willing to subscribe to the huge suite. | |
| ▲ | jandrewrogers 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Companies have finite attention. Taking on the risk of switching tools often has a higher cost than paying more for the existing tools. There is a significant opportunity cost offsetting the savings. Trying to compete on price with a tool a company already uses is usually an exercise in futility. A core function of enterprise sales is figuring out where that opportunity cost threshold is. PE often targets industries that are currently (in their estimation) priced well below that threshold. | |
| ▲ | yardie 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Their competitors did exactly that! Moved right in with the same old price so I didn't even have to expand the budget and they threw in training for free! | |
| ▲ | mikestew 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because capitalism and customer brand awareness don’t work like your Econ class told you. There is a lot more nuance, starting with the inertia of customer’s awareness of brand reputation. But don’t listen to my ramblings, this comment in this thread does a better job than I would: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48295440 | | |
| ▲ | convolvatron 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | sure. not just that. certainly part of the issue is that the market is not perfect information. but there are plenty of other reasons as well. starting a new venture, whether from the foundation of an existing company or doing a new one takes investment and carries risk. maybe the sales relationships the existing company had were the results of decades of investment. maybe the ownership or the employees had a specific skillset or maybe they used tooling that could be bought easily anymore. maybe they had an important and established relationship with suppliers. maybe PE moved in because the business was viable, but not really growing and there isn't sufficient upside to motivate investors. or the business only existed because the owner just loved that thing so much and funded it at a near-loss out of family money. or the business was based on a huge capital investment or ownership of property in a key location that happened 20 years ago and isn't possible to replicate because of changes in the environment. there are 1000 reasons why these things aren't spherical cows. |
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