| ▲ | jeffbee 5 hours ago |
| Wealthy white exclave succeeds in using environmental justice language to keep cheap coal-fired power to themselves. Very American outcome. Although I obviously don't care about Microsoft's outcome here, this was clearly a great site at the intersection of two transmission lines and with essentially infinite water resources. The data center would have been built in this scene. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8440852,-87.8474228,2445m/da... |
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| ▲ | trollbridge 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Some of us would like to keep our “infinite” water resources which actually aren’t infinite. I live beneath two transmission lines (overlapping, I guess, but not intersecting) and would prefer no data centre built here. Why? Because it will provide me no benefit whatsoever, reduce my property value, and worsen my quality of life due to things like light pollution and noise. If data centre operators would fix these things perhaps people would feel differently. For example - provide multi gigabit fibre Internet to everyone nearby. |
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| ▲ | thewebguyd 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > provide multi gigabit fibre Internet to everyone nearby. Kind of a cool idea, actually. These data centers could turn the towns where they build into startup incubators. Offer free high speed internet and heavily subsidized compute to residents in exchange for building there. At least gives back economically somewhat, as a data center itself doesn't provide much in return. | | |
| ▲ | culi 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Gigabit internet doesn't power startups. It powers consumer streaming. As long as you can run Zoom, you don't need high internet speeds for startups | | | |
| ▲ | r_lee 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | how exactly is high speed fiber + subsidized compute a recipe for making startups? |
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| ▲ | parineum 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This water usage meme needs to die. Although, it is nice to have an indicator for people who believe whatever they told without trivial verification. | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I support in principle the rights of towns to set their own land use rules, but on the larger societal picture I don't support people benefiting from things like intermodal shipping, goods distribution, and information services that they refuse to host. So I perceive a certain hypocrisy in this story. | | |
| ▲ | 3eb7988a1663 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Surely I benefit from a host of things for which I want nowhere near me. Strip mining, petroleum refining, chemical processing, coal fired electricity, etc.
Am I allowed any autonomy or must we all accept that if a rich group wants to plop down a leather tanning factory across the street, I should have no recourse? | | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's a mix of different issues. The site of a natural resource isn't one of the things that political systems control, whereas the site of a petrochemical refinery or a power station is chosen by those systems. So yes, it is obviously hypocrisy to consume petrochemical products while insisting that the refinery can't be in your "rural character" exclave with the arbitrary line drawn around it, but allowing the same facility to be built over the county line in the poorer, browner community that you consider sacrificial. Anyway, the impacts of a data center are not in the same ballpark as the other things you mentioned. |
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| ▲ | Scroll_Swe 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I kind of agree but I live in a city in Sweden. Should I not be able to use youtube or order online because we don't have a DC right next door? | |
| ▲ | mindslight 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe everyone in this village already has their own local AI rig. From a technical perspective, data centers aren't providing public goods - rather they're more like attractive nuisances that foster centralized control. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Mentioned earlier in the thread, but maybe these data centers should start providing public goods to the towns/counties in which they build? Free high speed internet, heavily subsidized compute, maybe partner with local colleges to offer labs & internships, etc. There's no reason they can't be economic accelerators for the towns they are in. | | |
| ▲ | mindslight 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I agree it would help their image, but this all sounds like more corporate centralization to me. I've got a functioning electric coop that provides gigabit internet for a flat fee every month. I think they're even doing trial runs of 10Gb, but I haven't looked into it because I simply don't need it. Internet access can be a solved problem these days, where there is the political will. And if anything local colleges should be offering compute resources to the larger community, not themselves relying on scraps of generosity from commercial buildouts. | | |
| ▲ | trollbridge 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | With a new data centre, your electric coop rates can go up with no benefit to you whatsoever. | | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | In America electric rates are increasing due to 20 years of stagnation and failure to invest in transmission, and new data centers are on average associated with lower, not higher retail electric rates. This is because large consumers drive down marginal prices. In your country things may be proceeding differently, but that's the story here. |
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| ▲ | energy123 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| One of the rare cases where nimbys can't do damage because the hyper scalers will (and are) building their data centers across MENA, South Asia and SEA where they're welcomed with generous tax breaks and incentives. Sending kilobytes of text over thousands of miles is a lot easier than piping energy or housing across distance! |
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| ▲ | expedition32 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Welcomed by corrupt politicians perhaps the locals not so much. Data centers do not provide jobs and they are run by sociopath Americans who couldn't give a shit about human rights or the environment. |
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| ▲ | 866-RON-0-FEZ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The data center would have been built in this scene You mean the carefully cropped photo of pristine rolling farmland in the article is in reality next door to a coal-fired power plant? Say it ain't so. |
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| ▲ | insane_dreamer 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "a great site" -- you frame it like Microsoft was working for the public good |
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| ▲ | nixgeek 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Building a datacenter typically employs thousands of people in the trades, often for hundreds or a thousand plus hours, per person, from the start of a big build to the campus being complete. It’s quite literally millions of billable hours in trade labor. Modern datacenters also require very high standards of construction and are complex, so these projects create jobs and also represent a real training, upskilling and work experience opportunity for labor. There are many examples of electricians, plumbers and groundwork teams who did Microsoft’s site getting future work from Meta, Google or Amazon in the same part of the state because the experience has value. It’s easy to dismissively say datacenter is bad, or that it consumes too much water (despite many datacenters accused of this being a closed-loop cooling system), and ignore the billions of dollars spent during the project on labor which supports that local economy, or the improvements negotiated for the local area and paid for the hyperscaler, bundled in by the city/county planning as part of the permits and approvals. It’s also rare the tax for a campus is fully rebated, although it’s normal for the improvements to be partially rebated for some period (this is an investment incentive). Viewed over 20-40 years these sites are often tremendously lucrative in tax for the county/city as well. | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are a lot of jobs during construction. There are very few jobs during operation. Mostly site security and a few tech support staff. There will be some steady work for maintenance contractors, but that's much less than the initial construction. | | |
| ▲ | nixgeek 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mean, you’re right, but when the alternative is all that investment and those construction jobs AND the post-commissioning operational jobs go to a different community and a different economy, … What would you prefer? To me, local communities tend to benefit in multiple different ways during and after these projects, poorer communities become richer, communities with little opportunity now have more opportunity. I’m always a bit baffled by someone saying “Please don’t invest $5B and create 100s of jobs and taxable improvements in my back yard”. This is a common argument: wanting 1000s of jobs during construction and 1000s of jobs after construction, but this isn’t a car manufacturing plant. That’s a “we want our cake and we want to eat it too” argument — not saying it’s your argument just that this comes up frequently. | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But what often happens is that the company is granted a ten year tax abatement in exchange for the jobs, the jobs end up being fewer than promised, and then in ten years the company closes the site and now the community has an empty industrial brownfield that was built for one thing and can't be easily repurposed. | | | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It makes more sense when you realize that the same people also don't want anyone new living in their town, so they do not perceive any value to new jobs, only costs. |
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| ▲ | Danox 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is the last stand for Satya Narayana Nadella Copilot has to work… |
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| ▲ | Scroll_Swe 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | HDThoreaun 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Water is a renewable resource. It actually is infinite if youre just using it to cool a datacenter, it does not disappear when youre done with it. | |
| ▲ | pessimizer 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Libertarians turn super-woke when white privilege keeps them from doing what they want to do when they want to do it. The bad thing about just being able to steal from the blacks is that the blacks don't have anything to steal anymore. Not being able to steal from whites as easily as you can steal from blacks is literally white supremacy actually, so to be a good ally everybody has to let Microsoft build a datacenter in their backyard. YIMBYs rule! |
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