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platinumrad 4 hours ago

I genuinely don't understand how the titans of industry who support the Republican party don't understand that science is the foundation on which their entire fortunes are built.

epistasis 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Their fortunes are already built. They have shifted into defensive posture. They don't care about enabling more people to do discovery, that actually puts their position at great risk of disruption. What they want is to have very little innovation, and be able to capture the innovation that squeaks through.

gwerbin 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think it's true that they want little innovation. This is a political move. It's a setup for an environment where only politically approved research can happen. So the innovation machine eventually restarts, but without all the side effects of things like unbiased public policy research and social justice movements that are politically misaligned with the ultimate goal of corporate autocracy presiding over techno-serfdom.

whateverboat 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But eventually, this always fails as history has shown over and over again. It might take 40-50 years, but it will fail with devastating effects.

epistasis 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, and one reason the US has been so successful is because in the past 1) it was generally agreed that family dynasties should have limited ability to pass wealth generation to generation, and 2) that governance should be separated from wealth.

That's all being abandoned.

gwerbin 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think either your assertions (1) and (2) have been particularly consistent throughout US history. Leave aside the difficulty of defining what "successful" means, or should mean.

Just look at the (first) Gilded Age. It's pretty much you claim we didn't have in the past: Family dynasties and government sympathetic to the interests of wealthy business stakeholders. It took the better part of a century of hard fighting (including literal combat in some cases) to bring that to an end, and then we had what, 40 years? before the accumulated momentum of conservatism brought on the Reagan era.

And it's not a matter of just unions fighting it out in the textile mills and coal mines and railcar assembly plants either. After the Civil War the US Army was engaged in a widespread program of what would today be categorized as genocide, in service of business interests that thought they could make more money if you didn't have a pre-existing civilization in the Great Plains.

Go back a few decades further and you have the Civil War itself. Slavery was first and foremost profitable for cash crop plantation owners; everything follows from that.

epistasis an hour ago | parent [-]

Sure it wasn't universal, and when we didn't have those things the US was worse off, I'm talking about the times when the US has been a world leader.

epistasis 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Agreed, that's a better way to phrase my own thoughts than I was able to express.

dekhn 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I imagine some of them think that the industrial sector could replace academic sector for foundational scientific researcher ("the free market solves all known problems"). I imagine others believe we are headed for a huge crash that affects the whole world, in a way that having a large academic scientific establishment will not help. Just go live in a bunker in NZ until society rebuilds itself, or whatever (Altman). I suspect a few of the folks are just looney, and don't think rationally (Thiel).

cucumber3732842 an hour ago | parent [-]

>some of them think that the industrial sector could replace academic sector for foundational scientific researcher

Probably can't happen without huge changes to the tax code IMO.

That said, I think bringing the amount of research science we have under the umbrella of academia has been bad because it's basically introduced a plausible deniability and reputation laundering layer that furthers the 3-way revolving door between academia, government and industry.

dekhn an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't think industry can replace academic research for a more fundamental reason. It is rare for industry to willingly research things that are not on a direct path for profitability. Profitibility is calculated in a very local manner (direct cost and revenue); it doesn't consider indirect benefits, such as a basic biology research team discovering some fundamental new detail of biology which allows another team to do a better job discovering a new pharmaceutical drug. It does happen sometimes; my employer is a biotech/pharma that does a huge amount of basic research in addition to its focused pharma research, because they know that the basic research occasionally makes discoveries that greatly improve the pharma process.

IIUC, industry does get R&D tax credits- but that's probably not a good incentive system for basic research in industry.

What's happening now is that a small number of science-friendly rich people are making foundations/institutes that carry out basic research (Zuckerberg/Chan, Schmidt, and a few others) but it's unlikely those will completely supplant academic research at universities funded by NIH/NSF/DOE.

jmalicki 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It benefited them in the past, that allowed them to build up their fortunes. Bill Gates, for example, is now a big holder of farmland. Science allows others to build up fortunes that challenge theirs, and hurts the stasis in which they become gilded aristocracy.

Lowering their taxes while burning everything to the ground benefits them now.

munk-a 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'd argue that it doesn't actually benefit them now since they have more access to comfort than they could ever conceivably consume in their lifetime but I do absolutely agree that they think it benefits them because people who have accumulated wealth to that degree are highly fixated on making the number go up.

A less just, less stable society is far more likely to demonize and destroy billionaires. If you have such a high level of wealth the most rational action is charitability to insure the wealth of people who surround you to prevent instability and lower the chances you'll be the victim of a crime carried out due to desperation.

jmalicki an hour ago | parent [-]

They want a less just, more stable society.

Allowing others to build wealth just makes society less stable from their point of view. Better to keep the poor poor.

sowbug 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Step 1. Exploit the commons.

Step 2. Shut the door.

NooneAtAll3 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

if you "genuinely" want to understand, start considering the opposite - what is the easiest way to defend policy like this?

"science with outside helps the other side" - done.

Current administration sees US as losing its positions, so the main answer is to close the leaks that feed its opponents with US effort

yongjik 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't understand the argument. Imagine flipping positions. You're saying that if an American researcher goes to China, gets employed by a Chinese university, and do research funded by China which is then commercialized by Chinese companies, the researcher is actually aiding America in expense of China.

groundzeros2015 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The missing piece is an ethnic and political identity which gives allegiance to the US in that “tables turned” analogy.

platinumrad an hour ago | parent [-]

Fine, imagine that the researcher is a black American then.

groundzeros2015 an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes, if a Saudi went to Chinese university, worked in china, sent money home to his family, and then returned to consult for Saudi government or business, that would indeed be beneficial for Saudia Arabia.

It would also be beneficial even if he didn’t do that, but helped others do that.

platinumrad an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't think I said "Saudi". Why aren't you engaging with the hypothetical as presented?

groundzeros2015 an hour ago | parent [-]

Yeah you made up a completely irrelevant case. Why are you not engaging the following aspects:

- ethnic identity tying one to country of origin (Chinese people identify as Chinese and see their country of origin as their people, Americans rarely hold the same view)

- asymmetry (America is best for education and business)

- strong national government which pursues its interests

platinumrad 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

I chose a black American specifically because they are as closely identified with America as any other group. The natives were here before them, but they don't have the same relationship with the state or the abstract national project.

Saudi Arabia is a bizarre choice because it isn't exactly a research powerhouse. America might be ahead, but China is the clear runner up and is catching up thanks to what might as well be an intentional effort to undermine American science.

platinumrad 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I am genuinely unable to understand because even if the United States is descending into fascism or whatever, research is the last thing that an effective state wants to disrupt and scientists are one of the last groups that an effective state wants to alienate.

I'm not just referring to restrictions on collaborations with foreign researchers, although I frankly do not see how that meaningfully reduces the ability of opponents to benefit from US research unless we kill open publishing as well. I'm talking about the last year and a half of destroying the ability of every basic researcher I know to work in a stable and predictable environment.

runako 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

1. Much of US policy toward science is backlash to Covid vaccinations. Being anti-Science is a way of preventing Science from inflicting itself on the populace again in the future.

2. Science trends toward meritocracy, which is bad if your goal is to promote a particular social hierarchy.

Hikikomori 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It's been there so much longer, even Carl Sagan talked about it, and its inherently tied to religion.

groundzeros2015 an hour ago | parent [-]

We just did a 30 year run of “religious people are dumb and holding bus back” and it didn’t start a science boom and just made people more unhappy and disaffected.

And 2020 further revealed that science is not immune from politics or its own religious ideals.

Hikikomori an hour ago | parent [-]

When did this ever happen?

groundzeros2015 an hour ago | parent [-]

After your formative years when you were done adopting new ideas.

bad_haircut72 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They are concerned with their first objective which is consolidate power. Running an "effective state" is not their goal at this point in time. Infact it helps them as thingn get worse, because every bad thing that happens they spin into being their oppositions fault, which helps with objective no 1

linguae 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In my opinion, it’s been a problem for a long time. Sure, the titans of industry are very interested in the profitable applications of science, but they are generally less interested in investing in science, let alone the science itself. Science is seen as a cost center, and research is inherently risky. Even in the glory days of Bell Labs and Xerox PARC, both were backed by monopolies (the Bell System was the phone monopoly, and Xerox had patents in xerography). The former was subject to special government rules due to AT&T’s constant anti-trust troubles, and the latter’s culture was heavily influenced by ARPA due to ex-ARPA people like Bob Taylor.

I am reminded by this quote from an email exchange between Bret Taylor and Alan Kay, published in 2017:

“As I pointed out in a previous email, Engelbart couldn't get funding from the very people who made fortunes from his inventions.

“It strikes me that many of the tech billionaires have already gotten their "upside" many times over from people like Engelbart and other researchers who were supported by ARPA, Parc, ONR, etc. Why would they insist on more upside, and that their money should be an "investment"? That isn't how the great inventions and fundamental technologies were created that eventually gave rise to the wealth that they tapped into after the fact.

“It would be really worth the while of people who do want to make money -- they think in terms of millions and billions -- to understand how the trillions -- those 3 and 4 extra zeros came about that they have tapped into. And to support that process.”

https://worrydream.com/2017-12-30-alan/

The titans of industry not understanding the importance of science beyond its profitable applications doesn’t surprise me at all.

groundzeros2015 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because science is an abstraction for ann incredibly wide range of human activity some of which benefits industrial applications and some that doesn’t.

barbazoo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But it isn't required in order for them to get richer at this point.

root_axis 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's just the political division. Scientists and academic types tend to lean left, the republicans are a right leaning party so they oppose them. It's not even a Trump thing, it's been like this for decades, though Trump is obviously more aggressive than previous Republican leaders.

rolph 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

heres a bit of a fringe view, from me, and others.

governments need influence, and yellow the truth,so as to manage the overall situation, thats a first assumption.

now we see a lot of actions that in the end seemlike footgunning, basically derailing the foundations of civilization.

perhaps this is not megalomania, greed, or sickness.

perhaps, as is often portrayed in popular scifi, we are all doomed to face a terrible challange, there are only few very closed mouth individuals that absolutely know. [remember this is a fringe conspiracy hypothesis]

we are being distracted and kept on the dark about impending catastrophe,so as to stave off absolute chaos,little hope of influencing anyone except by overwhelming show of force. perhaps "they" know its a matter of years, not decades until we experience that thing that suddenly, seemingly cyclically clears the board and the whole assembly begins again from square 2,or 3,not quite square one. [Re fringe;conspiracy]

"they" are behaving in an all bets are off manner, keeping thier hand hidden, playing an endgame rather than making a benign effort.

watwut 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They already have that fortune. So, they dont care and dont have to care. Moreover, someone else using science to create fortune is just another competitor and a threat to said fortune.