| ▲ | LeifCarrotson an hour ago |
| What was most surprising about all this to me was this line: > So modern DRAM manufacturing is an extraordinarily complex and expensive process. Building a single state-of-the-art DRAM fabrication facility, a “fab,” will cost you about $15 to $20 billion; acquiring all the necessary equipment, like lithography tools and etching machines, will cost you another few billion; and then it’ll take you a few years of producing substandard and defective memory chips before your yields start to look competitive. Extraordinarily complex and expensive! And yet I look at all the money being shuffled around between Nvidia and Google and Microsoft and Amazon and Apple and can't help but think that this is a tiny amount in comparison to what they're moving around on the stock market buying shares in each other. Apple in particular has $20B in its couch cushions and is very vertically integrated and hardware-focused. Apple silicon is currently made by TSMC, but it seems they'd be a prime candidate to spin up their own memory fab. I suppose the biggest problem to current executives at each company is the "few years" until that investment yields results, in the short term it's better to pay through the nose and buy GPUs with HBM at any price. |
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| ▲ | mrandish 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| > it seems they'd be a prime candidate to spin up their own memory fab. While Apple et al certainly have the money to tilt up their own fab, they're savvy enough to understand the memory market's long history of constant boom/bust cycles. I still remember the huge DRAM shortage in late 80s forcing my startup at the time to delay launching our new product for a year. People assume Apple cares about vertically integrating cost but they're actually focused on integrating margin. Apple has billions in cash on hand and when they think about what to do with it, a key metric is Return on Capital, especially the margin that capital will generate. Since a core metric public companies are judged on is blended margin, they are looking for ways their bags o' cash can be put to work generating revenue at margins that will pull their current average margin up vs down. Averaged over time, mainstream memory devices are historically one of the worst margin areas of the semi market. It's super expensive to tilt up a fab on a new node but once you do, turning the crank faster to make a lot more chips isn't too hard because mainstream DRAM tends to be quite uniform. So when a fab on a new node and/or RAM generation first opens, the margins tend to be pretty great. But as the node matures and/or the RAM generation goes from 'new' to 'commodity', competition heats up as everyone gets better at making more faster. Then they're tempted to maximize revenue by cutting prices until their mature fab is at 101% utilization. And that eventually drives margins down until someone's selling near cost to sustain their low-price-enabling volume - with occasional dips below cost when they get stuck holding excess inventory. That's why cash-rich companies with high margins like Apple are delighted to buy DRAM built with Other People's Money. As long as the DRAM market is under competitive pressure, Apple gets to shop their huge orders around to get the absolute lowest price on RAM that was built with other investor's low margin dollars. |
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| ▲ | swatcoder an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And what happens if the market settles back down or the leading memory tech pivots away from what you invested all this capital and time chasing? You'd need a very strong, very particular forecast to make such a costly bet. And conversely, it may say something about their internal forecasts that they're not making the bet. |
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| ▲ | lesuorac 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > And conversely, it may say something about their internal forecasts that they're not making the bet. Idk if you can read into it that way. All these companies have cafeterias but you don't see them investing into farmland so they can get their bananas a few cents cheaper. But also why bother spending 20B on a fab when you can invest 20B into TSMC and let them build the fab? | |
| ▲ | shimman 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why should society care about people making profits? Society would greatly benefit from cheap abundant ram than FAANG shares going up. I'm kinda sick about only caring that some billionaire makes more money and would rather you know... actually improve conditions to better society. This is why China is eating the West. Quite easy to start an electronics company when you have such an abundance of suppliers, compare this to America where there is maybe one or two players in the entire nation. Quite pathetic, but we live in a pathetic world so it tracks. | | |
| ▲ | prewett 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Society should care about people making profits because otherwise those people do something else instead of providing goods and services. What happened in Communism is instructive on this point. Now if you want to argue that the pursuit of maximum profit as an end is a problem, there's a case to be made. The US had something like a marginal tax rate of 90% around the 1940s/1950s, if I recall correctly, and it obviously didn't hurt innovation, but people got paid in perks and corner offices and status instead of just money. I think people are misled by Marx and derivatives, and misdiagnose the problem. I don't think people are upset by the CEO making lots of money as much as they are by the HBS management style of using people as a tool, or even as interchangeable "resources". However, the philosophical materialism of Marx & Co. pretty much makes this inevitable. (The secular view is also materialism, so you get it on both sides.) | |
| ▲ | hcurtiss 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | You think Chinese businesses aren’t in it for the profits? |
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| ▲ | m463 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Apple in particular has $20B in its couch cushions I wonder how long it REALLY took them to move from intel to apple silicon, which they don't even make. It might be easy, like a consumer deciding to generate their own electricity (pv on the roof) or it might be slightly harder, like a consumer deciding to generate their own electricity by drilling for oil, refining it, etc... |
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| ▲ | prewett 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Well, they acquired PA Semi in 2008, they used their first chip (the A4) in the iPad in 2010, and they progressively iterated using the chip in phones until they announced the switch from Intel in 2020 (concurrently, more or less, with the A14). So it took them 12 years and 10 different chips. |
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| ▲ | xbmcuser 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Part of this is a lie high prices for equipment has a lot to do with monopolies in the whole supply chain and one of the major reason I am rooting for China to get parity on node as that would mean it would have been able to break all the monopolies and we get competition on the whole production from uv machines, wafer, on equipment for storing etc. Renewables are rapidly taking the world to very cheap or free energy but it would be bad if the way to best use the energy for production is controlled by a few corporations |
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| ▲ | richforrester an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Literally the most overwhelming thought, reading this, is "man, capitalism is a mistake" The amounts of money circulating whilst some of us struggle to make rent ... Nothing fair, or just, about this world we live in |
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| ▲ | KnuthIsGod 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | China going capitalist ( while remaining authoritarian ) has helped lift 800 million out of desperate poverty. I hope that India too can emulate this in my lifetime.
I was born in Kerala and would love to see Indians live in a country that is as wealthy per capita ( PPP adjusted ) as Singapore or failing that even as wealthy as the USA. Capitalism has it's problems.
But you struggling with rent is entirely your problem... | |
| ▲ | mhb 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Courtesy of TFA and capitalism: "In 1985, if you were a reasonably affluent American, the best computer that you could afford was the IBM PC AT. The PC AT would cost you about $6,000—$19,400 in 2026 dollars—and thus represented about a quarter of the median American’s annual income; and it ran on an Intel 80286 processor, capable of something like 900,000 instructions per second. Today, if you find yourself in a market stall in Nairobi or Lagos, you’ll be able to find a cheap smartphone—like the Tecno Spark Go, manufactured by China’s Transsion—for somewhere between $30 and $120. That phone will run on a processor capable of billions of calculations per second." | | |
| ▲ | richforrester 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | That has little to do with what I said. A third of the world lives in poverty. That's the fault of capitalism. | | |
| ▲ | rationalist 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > A third of the world lives in poverty. That's the fault of capitalism. So what you're saying is that capitalism lifted about two thirds of the world out of poverty. Thanks to capitalism, I don't have to toil in the fields. | | |
| ▲ | hackyhacky 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Thanks to capitalism, I don't have to toil in the fields. No, that's thanks to commerce not to capitalism. Capitalism benefits those those who hold capital, which is not me. The fact that there are more than enough resources for no one to live in poverty should suggest to you that something is wrong with the distribution system. "It's true, Mr/Ms Rationalist, that our patented Miracle Medical Snakeoil caused a third of your leg to become necrotic and fall off, but be glad for the two thirds that did not fall off!" | | |
| ▲ | rationalist 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > > Thanks to capitalism, I don't have to toil in the fields. > No, that's thanks to commerce not to capitalism. Capitalism benefits those those who hold capital, which is not me. Are you toiling in the fields? It seems to me like your attitude is that "If I can't be rich, then no one should be rich." > The fact that there are more than enough resources for no one to live in poverty should suggest to you that something is wrong with the distribution system. So instead of two thirds of the world not living in poverty, everyone should live in poverty equally? | | |
| ▲ | hackyhacky 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > It seems to me like your attitude is that "If I can't be rich, then no one should be rich." The problem with capitalism is not that some people get rich and some people don't. The problem is that of an unfair playing field. Everyone has a body and a mind, and commerce allows us to rent out those features in exchange for pay. People who are smarter or stronger or work harder or work more will be able to benefit more. That's how I got rich. But there's a limit to how rich I can get, because I have only one body and one mind and there are a finite number of hours in the day. The other way to get rich is to own things. If you own a factory or real estate or bonds you get to charge other people and make a profit even though you are expending no effort. And in this case there is no limit on your profit, because you can use your profit to buy more capital and make more profit from that. The result is eventually a winner-take-all economy, where the winners own an increasing amount of society and everyone else pays them to use it. If that sounds familiar, it should, because it's feudelism, and is the eventual end state of capitalism. You should really read a bit about the philosophy that you're arguing so vehemently for, apparently without knowing anything about it. > So instead of two thirds of the world not living in poverty, everyone should live in poverty equally? No, that's ridiculous. |
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| ▲ | CamperBob2 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Really? What other systems are better at lifting people out of poverty (without killing a few tens of millions in the process?) There are so many other places where this sort of low-effort high-school edgelording fits in better than here. | | |
| ▲ | hackyhacky 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > There are so many other places where this sort of low-effort high-school edgelording fits in better than here. A good sign of low-effort edgelording is championing an obviously broken system by using a straw man to disparage the alternatives. |
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| ▲ | hackyhacky 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | This quote has nothing to do with capitalism. Please note that "commerce" and "capitalism" are not synonymous, and that the former does not imply the latter. Capitalism is in no way a prerequisite for technological development. | | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Capitalism is in no way a prerequisite for technological development. Really? Who else builds stuff? | | |
| ▲ | torben-friis 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | >Who else builds stuff? The Chinese, famously? | |
| ▲ | lkey 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You don't have to demonstrate this kind of ignorance of human history on main.
Aren't you embarrassed? Do you value knowledge even a little bit? When did capitalism begin? How was 'stuff' created and distributed prior to that? How do other, distinct and contemporaneous modes of production create 'stuff'? | |
| ▲ | hackyhacky 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Really? Who else builds stuff? Said the Christian in pre-Englightenment Europe: "Well, of course Christianity is the one true religion. After all, the whole civilized world is Christian." | | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That doesn't answer my question. | | |
| ▲ | hackyhacky 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That's because your question is silly. I'll spell it out for you: Just because all modern states are capitalist does not mean that all states must be capitalist, as evidenced by the many erstwhile states that were not capitalist. Your failure to see beyond your immediate surroundings and ignoring the first sentence of my previous comment is perhaps the reason for your silly question. |
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