I do hope The U.S. hyperscalers do the same as well.

In an ideal world U.S. residents would use Chinese AI models and Chinese residents would use U.S. AI models.

Governments in both countries are collecting data for nefarious reasons. But the Chinese government has far less influence on a U.S. resident and vice versa.

We are all better off if our data is collected by a government halfway across the world instead of our own governments which hold incredible amounts of power over us.

▲ adrianN 20 days ago | parent | next [-]

In an ideal world everybody runs open models on hardware they control.

	▲	LeifCarrotson 20 days ago \| parent [-]
		I'm running Qwen 3.6 via https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen3.6-35B-A3B-FP8 and it's pretty great. I'll update to the 3.7 equivalent when that's ready. It's not nearly worth it to me to get an incremental improvement in performance if it means I have to move to hosted environments with Qwen 3.7 (or Claude or Gemini or whatever).

▲ giancarlostoro 21 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It would have been the world we live in if China wasn't involved in so much corporate espionage. I don't even feel comfortable using their open weight models on anything my employer makes, the only time I use Qwen is for greenfield "how good is this?" type of projects, but otherwise, how do I trust that it wont mysteriously hallucinate phoning home?

On the other hand, there's other models where the source is 100% open, the training data is known, and people have reproduced the same model from scratch, so while those trail behind, there's definitely an effort to make models more open and capable.

▲ deaux 20 days ago | parent | next [-]

The US has for decades been engaged in mass dumping of their products to establish monopolies all over the world, and punishing anyone who dares try do anything about it. This isn't better than corporate espionage.

▲ eloisant 21 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree, but the same goes for the US. Remember Echelon.

▲ stickfigure 21 days ago | parent [-]

It's highly improbable that the US government has a secret team inside Anthropic and OpenAI manipulating their training regimen. For better or worse, these companies are filled with ideologues and something that invasive would trigger an army of whistleblowers (despite legal consequences).

▲ booty 20 days ago | parent | next [-]

    It's highly improbable that the US government has a secret team inside Anthropic and OpenAI manipulating their training regimen.

Two thoughts.

One: it would be relatively technically trivial for $GOVERNMENT_AGENCY to just monitor all the prompts + context we send over the wire to OpenAI/Anthropic/etc. That's a goldmine of sensitive personal and corporate data, no secret team needed (although, the LLM providers obviously would need to cooperate)

Two: Rather than secret infiltration teams influencing model training I think what's more likely on the training side of things is simply self-censoring by the LLM providers, so that they don't risk angering the government.

I highly doubt that China has government interlopers, secret or otherwise, inside Qwen's training team. Nonetheless, "sensitive" issues like Tiananmen Square are censored. I would imagine that much/most such censorship in China is self-censorship that doesn't leave a legal/paper trail. That's what we're in danger of seeing (more of) in America IMO.

	▲	Barbing 20 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> relatively technically trivial for $GOVERNMENT_AGENCY to just monitor all the prompts + context we send I take this for granted given Room 641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A Thus, I’ve pondered whether anything they’ve learned has changed the world / had a big impact (like on their understanding of human psychology, perhaps per region). They’ve heard phone calls, they’ve read emails, diaries get brought to court… but these are systems that would be used like diaries but also prompt users for more and more.
	▲	SoMomentary 20 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Having seen all the AI interactions that you can get through clickstream data I have no doubt that $GOVERNMENT_AGENCY can see much much more.

▲ throwaw12 20 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> secret team inside Anthropic and OpenAI manipulating their training regimen

You don't need a secret team to manipulate whats coming from them: https://responsiblestatecraft.org/israel-chatgpt/

▲ Planktonne 20 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> these companies are filled with ideologues

Are they? They don't behave like it.

▲ gmerc 21 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Its very hard to be so naive.

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SR2Z 20 days ago | parent [-]

I think you are being ridiculous. Tampering with an LLMs pretraining is a difficult undertaking. There is plenty of evidence that training a model to walk the party line leaves it less capable than if it weren't.

It's not very subtle manipulation either; ask qwen of Taiwan is a part of China in German and in English and only the English answer will be party-approved.

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embedding-shape 20 days ago | parent | next [-]

Compared to what we have proof the US government have engaged in before? Do people not remember PRISM anymore? It was virtually impossible to think of the scope before it was leaked, and you'd be marked as a conspiracy theorist for believing that happened, before it was made concretely true.

I think it's borderline naive to assume various agencies haven't infiltrated OpenAI, Anthropic and others, essentially the entire world was wiretapped by NSA in the past, to assume they don't have an employee or two at these companies does seem a bit naive to me.

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logicchains 20 days ago | parent [-]

Agencies like the CIA have infiltrated the news agencies, so they have indirect power over the information that LLMs consume.

	▲	SR2Z 18 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		So there's no reason for the CIA to poison LLMs at all then according to you?
	▲	italiansolider 19 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Yup, that's data poisoning on worldwide scale.

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gmerc 19 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Tampering with pretraining is as simple as uploading a few pages to github. See pliny

▲ gcr 20 days ago | parent | prev [-]

how could running the qwen GGUF phone home? that would require cooperation with the inference backend (llama-cpp), or some kind of model exploit. It’d be far easier to pay the agent harness devs or supply-chain some plugin or something, that space is the Wild West anyways

I've certainly used these models without wifi without any differences.

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HDBaseT 20 days ago | parent [-]

You've used Qwen with model quantization, locally without internet connection.

A lot of people are purchasing access via Alibaba Cloud directly, or indirectly by companies which host the model.

	▲	gcr 20 days ago \| parent [-]
		Pardon. You had mentioned open weight models so I assumed you meant self-hosted

▲ nickdothutton 21 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

China is much more interested in waging a campaign against companies that represent the material of the future growth in productivity, exports, and prosperity of the US and her people, than learning about you as an individual. Unless of course you are a Chinese dissident living in the US.

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WarmWash 21 days ago | parent | next [-]

China definitley wants information on all Americans. This commment is so far off the mark you it's on par with "Billionaires aren't interested in taking your money"

As Americans go through life, some of them will become people with power. When you need to leverage that power, having the right knowledge about them can effectively transfer that power to you.

Tiktok was a goldmine, because every 20-something on their way to a future position of power was uploading every single facit of their digital life to CCP servers everyday.

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giancarlostoro 21 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Which is basically the current primary use for AI is programming more than anything, you hear about AI in programming more than in any other field.

	▲	saghm 21 days ago \| parent [-]
		There are also a lot more novels about writing than making movies and a lot more songs about music than plays. It's not clear that this is because it's actually the primary use-case or if it's just because people who work with computers will inevitably talk quite a lot about computer things. For the past several years, pretty much everyone I meet who isn't in software but find out I do (doctors, people who sit next to me on a plane, etc.) will ask me my thoughts about AI because it's so widely discussed in general, and they're curious about my perspective on it as someone in software, but most of the time they're most curious about understanding more about how it might affect their own lives, not mine.

▲ boomskats 21 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, about that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement#Controversy

▲ MintPaw 20 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interesting point, but I'd always thought the opposite, you're much better protected by the law if you use services from your own country.

If you use a service outside your country, I believe you could have all your code stolen and get hacked/exploited in a way that would be totally legal.

▲ CodingJeebus 21 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> We are all better off if our data is collected by a government halfway across the world instead of our own governments which hold incredible amounts of power over us.

Sure, that is until each government's dataset is interesting enough to the other to facilitate a data-sharing agreement.

There's gotta be an internet "law" that says something like "Eventually, the data you volunteer to a benign 3rd party eventually winds up being used against you by someone". This is short-term thinking at it's finest.