I think the article's point is that you don't actually have to get weird at all to run into UB.

Lots of people mistakenly think that C and C++ are "really flexible" because they let you do "what you want". The truth of the matter is that almost every fancy, powerful thing you think you can do is an absolute minefield of UB.

▲ kzrdude 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

My go-to example of "UB is everywhere" is this one:

    int increment(int x) {
        return x + 1;
    }

Which is UB for certain values of x.

▲ jstimpfle 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would agree that C is "really flexible", but I would say it's primarily flexible because it lets you cast say from a void pointer to a typed pointer without requiring much boilerplate. It's also flexible because it lets you control memory layout and resource management patterns quite closely.

If you want to be standards correct, yes you have to know the standard well. True. And you can always slip, and learn another gotcha. Also true. But it's still extremely flexible.

▲

simonask 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

It's not flexible in practice, because knowing the standard isn't optional. If you make the choice to not follow the standard, you're making the choice to write fundamentally broken software. Sometimes with catastrophic consequences.

	▲	jstimpfle a few seconds ago \| parent [-]
		I'm making the choice to pass pointers as void, to control the memory layout of my data structures, including of levels and type of indirection. I'm making the choice to control my own memory allocators and closely control lifetimes, closely control (almost) everything that happens in the system. That has nothing to do with not following the standard.

▲ 3form an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

At which point it feels like some sort of high-level assembly-like language, which is simple enough to compile efficiently and stay crossplatform, with some primitives for calls, jumps, etc. could find a nice niche.

Maybe this already exists, even? A stripped down version of C? A more advanced LLVM IR? I feel like this is a problem that could use a resolution, just maybe not with enough of a scale for anyone to bother, vs. learning C, assembly of given architecture, or one of the new and fancy compiled languages.

	▲	simonask 18 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Well, Zig is aiming to be a "saner C", and mostly succeeding so far. I hope they make it to production. Rust is a somewhat more thorough attempt to actually course-correct.