Remix.run Logo
barbazoo 2 hours ago

What is the real purpose of airshows anyway? It always seems like very elevated risk for very little reward but I might just be missing what the reward is.

rootusrootus an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Too many comments are trying to overanalyze, or just show off their insightful cynicism.

We do airshows because they are cool. Lots of us love airplanes. Humans do all kinds of activities for entertainment that are not strictly justifiable returns on investment. I hope we never get that boring, though every year we do seem to go that direction.

operatingthetan an hour ago | parent | next [-]

No. They are for recruitment and showing other nations what is on hand in case they want to mess with them.

>insightful cynicism.

So in response you select the most naive take?

kube-system 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Even the airshows that the military flies at are often primarily civilian shows. The military clearly has recruiting and power demonstration goals but airshows in general exist outside of those goals. The majority of the aviators at these shows are civilian hobbyists.

justin66 38 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They work for recruitment because... they're cool.

nearlyepic 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sure, but the purpose is recruitment. They wouldn't do them if they didn't get anything out of them, and what they get out of them is PR and boosts to recruitment efforts.

BoorishBears 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't understand this comment. If you want to be the minimally charitable + maximally accurate commenter your tone suggests, then you're also wrong.

It's a superset of the reasons you poorly articulated, and those reasons would include the fact it's cool. Cool things can help both recruitment and morale, and the US military seems to recognize that: https://armedforcessports.defense.gov/Sports/Esports/

If this is just meant to be another comment on the situation which comes with an implicit grain of salt, then the browbeating doesn't make sense.

operatingthetan 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

Bizarre response. Don't make things up or project based on your perception of tone. Your style of criticism and declaring the 'truth' is intensely off-putting.

BoorishBears 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

It's not (just) my perception, most socially aware people would interpret the sign off:

> So in response you select the most naive take?

As well as your reply to me now, as having an unduly negative tone... at least, given the lack of substance or importance.

(Ironically, I have less of hang up on meaningful arguments delivered with edge than most people.)

operatingthetan 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Please go away.

bigyabai 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

They're being rude, but right. Burying your head in the sand is not an intellectually gratifying response to barbazoo's comment, and the actual meat of their answer ("because they're cool") is obviously incorrect.

Both are unprofessional comments, but only the original was dishonest. The "too many comments" shtick is a thought terminating cliche that shouldn't be encouraged on HN.

BoorishBears a minute ago | parent [-]

Again, they're not even right if we're going maximum correctness here...

Maximally correct answer is "there are many reasons with complex interplay", and those reasons do include the fact it's cool! Being cool has interplay with morale, recruitment, and even their ham-fisted attempt at referencing geopolitics.

They'd be *more right if they said in addition, but they just straight up said "No."

(Also where did you read a too many comments shtick?)

lelandbatey 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure that's why the bean counters wrote the checks for them, but that's not the reason people attend. People attend because they are a spectacle.

bigyabai an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's worth questioning what the costs are, though. I love military aviation more than the average Joe, and seeing these jets pushed to their limits is pretty gratifying. But this isn't a football/soccer pasttime, the E/A-18 is an expensive F/A-18 block and the aviators are an asset of national security that take decades of experience and millions of taxpayer dollars to train. The losses sustained by the Blue Angels alone is stomach-churning, and they're widely known as one of the most professional groups around: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels#Team_accidents_and...

The net benefit is marketing, and little else. As much as I enjoy watching airshow jet maneuvers, I have to acknowledge that the USSR only sent their Sukhoi pilots on-tour as a publicity stunt to increase their exports. Same goes for the US, France and China.

yepyoukno 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I grew up in a time a whole lot more was spent on air shows.

They do it because it’s awesome and it is one of the few opportunities they get to show off their gear to the public!

chilmers 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Presumably recruitment and PR for the air force, and morale for the aviators, as they can show off their training and skills to friends, family and the general public.

zabzonk 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Acting as a sales platform for aircraft manufacturers is also a thing. The RAF Red Arrows are probably responsible for a load of sales of the Hawk advanced trainer they use in their displays.

tonypapousek 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If we view this through the lens of the “American civil religion“, these spectacles aren’t too unlike crowds of folks gathering to witness miracles.

ericmay 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It kind of is a miracle when you think about what goes in to creating those machines, maintaining them, and learning to fly them so well, of course crashes notwithstanding.

tonypapousek 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Agreed, it's amazing they don't crash more often, given the complexity of it all.

ericmay 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Crashes are rare. Exposure to the civilian for what their tax dollars are paying for, opportunities for pilots to become more skilled and train other pilots for advanced maneuvers. Things like that. Overall there’s not too much meat on the bone as far as criticisms are concerned.

vjvjvjvjghv 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Tell that to the people that died or got horribly burned at Ramstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramstein_air_show_disaster

Forgeties79 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can do advanced maneuvers without getting so close to another plane in some weird attempt at simulating a scenario that will never happen.

Did some cursory searches/math and it looks like about 1-2% of aerial shows in the US have a fatality (1-2 deaths annually with about 2000 shows on average over the last 20 years). If those numbers are correct (and they may very well not be as it’s a mix of LLM and Google quick searches) 1-2% doesn’t seem worth it.

Edit: I’m an idiot. .05-.1%. Seems a bit silly still but not as bad as I thought.

rootusrootus an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> You can do advanced maneuvers without getting so close to another plane in some weird attempt at simulating a scenario that will never happen.

That is likely true. However, it is a heck of a demonstration of pilot skill. The Blue Angels somewhat regularly post in-cockpit views of their airshow practice and it is wild how tight a formation they fly; I really recommend seeking out some of those videos, it is totally worth it. Well, for me at least :). It is not unheard of (but not common) for them to inadvertently make contact, since they fly like 18 inches apart, but given they have nearly identical vectors it does not often result in a crash.

Schiendelman an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also I think most of the fatalities in aerial shows are civilian pilots. Control out every nonmilitary flight when considering the risk.

bigfishrunning an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You might want to double check that LLM... If theres 2000 shows and 1-2 deaths, that's 0.05%-0.1%. still too high, but given the simple math error I think the other numbers are probably suspect too

Don't trust LLMs. They are bullshit machines.

Forgeties79 an hour ago | parent [-]

That was my mistake with quick mental math tbh

mpyne an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Recruiting for those considering careers, and marketing more broadly for those who pay taxes.

npunt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Public relations for mil spending

petcat 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Also, air shows and flybys are awesome.

nsxwolf an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All I know is I’m glad I don’t live in the world where this kind of reasoning dominates. All the greatest things I’ve seen in my life have been arguably pointless in this way.

DonHopkins 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The first rule of Flight Club is: you do not talk about Flight Club.

ElProlactin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You need to remind the plebs why they're citizens of the wealthiest country the world has ever known but still struggle to afford healthcare.

rootusrootus an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Healthcare is expensive because we buy fancy airplanes? It seems at least as likely to do with the incredibly high salaries we pay doctors. And the fact that we use like 50% more healthcare services than a typical single-payer society.

smcin 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

What's your source for claiming "[the US] uses like 50% more healthcare services than a typical single-payer society"?

Personal take-home pay for physicians is 8-10% of total US healthcare spending ($5tr). (or 20%/$1.11t for "physician and clinical services" overall which includes doctors, clinical staff, admin, and overhead costs.)

US total spending on pharmaceuticals is $1 tr; net spending on outpatient prescription drugs is $600b.

The DoD's total spending is $961.6b for FY 2026.

There's little argument against reforming both military spending and healthcare spending in the US, but (as Scott Galloway says) it's awfully hard to find a prominent politician who vocally supports reforming both these (not one at the expense of the other). So, the out-of-control spending/borrowing will continue.

Anyway, as to this crash, all other considerations apart, E/A-18Gs (electronic warfare planes) cost 60% more than F-18s. Who authorized flying them in an airshow?

mc3301 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm reminded of a short video clip I saw a while back with a dollar-counter on-screen. Different kinds of weapons were fired, each one bigger and more expensive than the last, the counter spinning upwards all-the-while. And here's me thinking: man, just don't shoot two or three of those anti-aircraft missiles, give the cash to me, and I could buy a house and live comfortably with my family.

streetfighter64 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Posturing, showing of your military capabilities towards the enemy. Raising morale (aka war propaganda) towards your own population.

Contrary to popular belief, war is mostly about public opinion, not raw strength. Even since (before) roman times, you almost never fight to the last man, you fight until you route the enemy.

Schiendelman an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I think the word you're looking for is "rout."

streetfighter64 an hour ago | parent [-]

Thanks for your valuable contribution.

userbinator an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

military capabilities towards the enemy

...and unfortunately sometimes also military mistakes, but fortunately this doesn't happen often.

dudul 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Entertainment, education about avionic/technology/engineering, military PR and recruiting, boost local economy, etc.

What's the purpose of motor sports? What's the purpose of a firework? What's the purpose of extreme sports exhibitions? mountain climbing expeditions?

vkou 25 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The purpose of airshows is to boost recruitment of cannon fodder for imperial conquests and to remind us that we are strong and the enemy is weak.

Same reason as for military parades.