Remix.run Logo
Mozilla to UK regulators: VPNs are essential privacy and security tools(blog.mozilla.org)
213 points by WithinReason 4 hours ago | 54 comments
ayashko 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Something I learned just recently—the Australian government (surprisingly!) actually recommends VPN usage, they even provide a bit of a guide and how to; https://beconnected.esafety.gov.au/topic-library/advanced-on...

monk_grilla 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That’s funny, I wonder if they might remove it since it is a common way for people to circumvent the ID requirement laws for certain sites.

hiisukun 39 minutes ago | parent [-]

They probably should at least update it -- I don't think a government should recommend free VPN services. Too many of them are a form of botnet, malware, ddos, etc.

consp 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

Main source of residential ip's you can "rent"?

mjmas 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The very same office of the eSafety commissioner that is enforcing age verification for social media.

https://www.esafety.gov.au/newsroom/blogs/social-media-minim...

danw1979 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yes. Isn’t effective regulation of dangerous products wonderful.

borzi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's why the government wants to get rid of them.

robotswantdata 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

1984 was meant to be a warning, not the UK’s digital infrastructure roadmap

IshKebab an hour ago | parent [-]

What an original thought.

https://www.google.com/search?q=1984+was+not+meant+to+be+an+...

Look at the images tab. This is so cliché there are hundreds of mugs and t-shirts with it!

aniviacat an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Times would be tough if we could only express thoughts noone thought before.

taneq 36 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> What an original thought.

Novel analysis here by IshKebab. :P

tylerchilds 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

This take is doubleplus good

speedgoose 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

While their arguments are sound, Perhaps Mozilla should disclose in this document that they are also a VPN reseller.

rustyhancock 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I may be in the minority but I'm perfectly fine with Mozilla's approach here.

They link to the full document which lists their VPN subscriber count near the top of the about Mozilla section.

rvnx 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It would sound like an advertisement though, so in some way it’s better they don’t mention it

foldr an hour ago | parent [-]

It’s better to hide conflicts of interest?

(Edit: I don’t disagree with Mozilla’s position, but failure to declare an obvious conflict of interest undermines their credibility.)

RobotToaster an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This is the Mozilla foundation, the VPN seller is Mozilla corporation.

foldr an hour ago | parent [-]

The foundation does get some of its funding from the corporation, though.

cryo32 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have seen some of the inside of this and it's not quite as clear cut.

One side of this is driven by a bunch of not too reputable think tanks behind the scenes who persuaded a couple of fringe academics to agree with them and push for it via the civil service. The government is taking bad, paid for advice. I don't know what the agenda is there but there is one and I reckon it's commercial. Probably a consortium of businesses wanting to create a market they can get into.

However the security services do not agree with the government or the think tanks and actually promote advice contrary to the regulators. They will ultimately win.

Attacking the regulators and revealing who is behind all this is what we should be doing.

gib444 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> They will ultimately win.

Sorry, who will win?

ktallett 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This comment is a little unclear.

However no matter what the government or security services want, they won't be able to stop people who want to use VPN or End to end encryption. Nothing would ever change in that regard.

cryo32 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

The technology bit doesn't really matter though.

The real problem is that the legislation would bring the power to prosecute people who use them or use it against them.

The security services aren't having any of that shit because it puts their position at risk both from the front-facing side and recommendations and guidance issued and from their own operations.

MagicMoonlight 14 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Bullshit. GCHQ loves new ways to spy. Being able to harvest all traffic is their dream. I’m sure they already do harvest it all.

If they cared about privacy and security they wouldn’t be [redacted].

cryo32 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

Their job is also to secure national infrastructure. Compromising that through policy would do more damage.

anonymous2024 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And also VPNs are tools to open doors in the minefield of legislations that they need to create to improve the incoming of some business, not of the people that voted for them.

rvnx 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interesting that they mention the UK but forget that the EU also wants to protect the kids by banning VPNs

SiempreViernes 2 hours ago | parent [-]

So your strategy when you are trying to change someones mind is to mention a lot of other people think like the mind you are trying to change?

Could you explain what is the theory behind that?

acd an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Actually with data fusion VPN does not fix privacy. Ad networks does data fusion of Javascript browser finger print. So you are de cloaked any way on a VPN

867-5309 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

most vpns block ads

usr1106 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

User to Mozilla: Cannot read your statement with a variant of your own browser because you have it "protected" by an internet gatekeeper.

iLoveOncall 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> VPNs are essential privacy tools

Does Mozilla not understand that this is the exact reason why the UK wants to forbid them?

reddalo 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And that's also the reason why they introduced "age verification". It's not age verification, they couldn't care less about children.

Age verification is just mass surveillance under a fake name.

epestr 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This assumes all parties involved already have a perfect understanding of the incentive structures at play.

Even under the uncharitable interpretation that 'the government' is against you, it assumes the state operates on Level 1 and can act on the raw premise that they don't care about privacy. While in reality, institutions have to manage optics and operate on Level 2 (as described in the SLtI framework: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/qDmnyEMtJkE9Wrpau/simulacra-...). Because they have to maintain that Level 2 structural facade for long-term viability, they can be forced to concede key policy points anyway.

tryauuum 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

"privacy tools" doesn't sound strong enough. "tools to bypass censorship of the future fascist government" sound better, though longer

I always remember a video snippet of some meeting in US, some chinese looking woman says something like "Mao took our guns and killed us all, I'm never giving up my rifle". Some politician reminds her that they live in the democracy. She asks him something like "can you guarantee me that in 20 years it will still be a democracy", which he admits he can't

found the video https://www.reddit.com/r/GunMemes/comments/1c13kkz/survivor_...

aboardRat4 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Didn't people make kinda that huge and broad movement too terminate PIPA and SOPA?

Could you, my wonderful Western friends, do that again?

I mean, all of it is even on video and largely on YouTube.

msuniverse2026 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

UK regulators are just hearing another excuse for a loicense.

badgersnake 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The UK government does whatever Meta tells them to do. We tax cigarettes because they’re bad for you. Let’s tax algorithmic news feeds.

canbus 2 hours ago | parent [-]

And who tells Meta what to do?

egamirorrim 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The UK gov needs to sod off with all this 1984 BS

ifwinterco 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

UK is not and has never been a free society, UK elites have an authoritarian streak.

Historically they were fairly smart at doing it subtly but the mask slipped during Covid and they never really put it back on.

Also - outside the HN bubble this stuff isn’t even unpopular. Normies supported covid lockdowns and they don’t want their kids watching porn either.

The people yearn to be ruled and nannied

budududuroiu 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've heard people on HN make the argument that a blanket ban is better because their kids won't feel it's unfair that only their family implements strict internet blocks

pibaker 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Also - outside the HN bubble this stuff isn’t even unpopular.

This stuff wasn't unpopular on HN until it actually happened. Almost every submission on HN about social media had people calling for similar regulations or even outright bans. It was not until they actually started asking for IDs when HNers realized what they really wanted to achieve with these laws.

wqaatwt an hour ago | parent [-]

There is a huge difference between supporting the regulation of algorithmic feeds and other dark patterns and a direct attack on personal privacy.

joe_mamba an hour ago | parent [-]

>There is a huge difference between supporting the regulation of algorithmic feeds and other dark patterns and a direct attack on personal privacy.

Normies don't see the difference and politicians don't want there to be a difference. Normies want security and politicians will offer it wrapped in surveilance.

Havoc an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I hear the UK regulator did want to respond but Mozilla office doesn't have a fax machine. So the grandpas in charge of regulating modern tech just took a nap instead

globular-toast 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is a fairly difficult problem. I think the internet should be for adults only, like many other things. But we've fucked up by giving children internet access and it's going to be hard to undo it. I think rather than fighting these measures we need to work on alternatives because keeping children off the internet is a good idea, we just need to implement it in a good way.

What about just banning phones for children? Could we ever make that work? It would be like cigarette bans except we now have 5 year olds addicted to tobacco and addict parents who don't want to make them go cold turkey.

Public libraries and schools can be used for genuine research purposes, but not addictive shit. And implemented ad blockers at the network level.

aboardRat4 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I had internet since I was a kid. By attacking the internet you are attacking my homeland.

globular-toast an hour ago | parent [-]

How old are you? I had the internet too but my homeland is already gone. Forums are empty, IRC channels quiet. It's just garbage run by adtech companies now.

iLoveOncall 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Or we could realize that there are already 2 generations that grew while having access to the internet and turned out perfectly fine?

wafflemaker 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Who knows?

Sexualization of teens is a thing. I personally blame social media together with showbusiness. But kids had access to the internet at the same time.

And the internet was slightly different than it's now. It had much more sharp edges that we learned how to live with.

But it also was much less predatory. World's smartest psychologists and programmers didn't work 80 hour weeks for small fortunes to make it as much addictive as possible.. if it was only that. It's also as triggering and depressing as possible, because distressed and depressed people are engaging more and can't stop.

What I mean to say is that you can't really draw an equal sign between internet we grew up with and the one we give (or choose to limit) to our children.

I don't mean we should block them, just that it's not the same.

ben_w 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We are many things, but "fine" isn't one of them.

How much the problems today are due to, rather than coincidental with, the internet, is a much more difficult thing to discern.

IshKebab an hour ago | parent [-]

We are fine. You're just falling for the "*this" generation is different" fallacy. Look up some history if you think previous generations had it all sorted until the nasty internet came along and corrupted us.

ben_w 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm not saying past generations were fine. Every generation having problems doesn't mean the most recent ones don't.

What makes problems into disasters is denying that there is a problem until it is too late.

Past generations mostly tried (with varying success) to fix the problems in their world. Sometimes the past generations' solutions are good, like much of the world mandating 40 hour work weeks and public pensions and workplace health and safety and so on; other times even when the problem is real, the solutions are worse, like the US experience with prohibition.

But when problems get ignored, you get stuff like leaded gasoline, cigarettes, and asbestos being everywhere, the Irish potato famine, the dissolution of the USSR, and the 2007 global financial crisis.

Even if AI doesn't do what it promises, the internet brings with it even more globalisation, cheap labour that undercuts any rich nation for jobs which can be done on a computer (which we've already seen examples of, not just with coding but also call centres). Even if Musk's promised about Optimus remain as unfulfilled as whichever version of full-self-driving just got made obsolete, a remote-controlled android does much the same for manual labour. And the internet does enable much weirder warfare: our governments can blame hacks on whoever they like, but there is often no dramatic photo of something burning as a result, just a diffuse degradation of economic performance from fully automated scams and blackmails.

And that's without any questions about demographic shift and who pays for the current generation's pensions when they retire. And without personalised propaganda. Without your home surveillance system (or robot vacuum cleaner) being turned against you by hacks only possible from cheap ubiquitous internet.

globular-toast an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I would be one of those two generations. I dispute your point on two grounds: first, the internet today isn't what it was back then; secondly, I, and many of my peers, didn't turn out just fine.

Back then the internet was a wild west run by thousands of clever people. It was like living in a neighborhood full of people kind of like you. Nobody built it to be addictive or to cultivate attention. If you wanted something you searched for it. Nowadays everyone is on there and it's run by evil adtech companies. Kids these days are not having the experience we had back then.

It also didn't really do us much good. Already back then geeky types like me had somewhere to retreat to and we did. It took me years to learn real social skills and build a life off of the internet. When I see headlines like "Gen Z aren't having sex" I'm hardly surprised. They're not having sex because they're on the internet. What's more is nobody is learning to be an adult at all. People are in a adult bodies but still totally children at heart. They don't own anything, shun responsibility etc.