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adjejmxbdjdn 4 hours ago

The argument is that “that’s what always happened in the past”.

Which is true, but it’s true as long as it’s not true.

The classic example of how drastically this kind of thinking can fail is Malthusian theory, that populations would collapse because food growth was linear while population growth was exponential. This was true for all of history until Malthus actually made this observation.

At a mechanistic level, the “we have always found other jobs” argument misses that the reason we’ve always found other jobs is because humans have always had an intelligence advantage over automation. Even something as mechanical as human inputs in an assembly line was eventually dependent on the human ability to make tiny, often imperceptibly, adjustments that a robot couldn’t.

But if something approximating AGI does work out, human labor has absolutely no advantage over automation so it’s not clear why the past “automation has created more human jobs” logic should continue.

rayiner 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Which is true, but it’s true as long as it’s not true.

It also isn't true. The story of the last 50 years has been that technology, especially computer and communications technology, has facilitated the concentration of wealth. The skilled work got computerized, or outsourced to India or China. That left U.S. workers with service jobs where they have much lower impact on P&L and thus much less leverage.

In my field, we used to have legal secretaries and law librarians and highly experienced paralegals. They got paid pretty well and had pretty good job security because the people who brought in the revenue interacted with them daily and relied on them. Now, big firms have computerized a lot of that work and consolidated much of the rest into centralized off-site back-office locations. Those folks who got downsized never found comparable work. They didn't, and couldn't, go work for WestLaw to maintain the new electronic tools. The law firms also held on to many of them until retirement or offered them early retirement packages, and then simply never filled the positions. It used to be a pretty solid job for someone with an associates degree, and it simply doesn't exist anymore.

The only thing keeping the job market together is the explosion in healthcare workers. My Gen-Z brother and sister in law are both going into those fields. In a typical tertiary American city, the largest employers are the local hospital and perhaps a university or community college. Both of those get most of their revenue directly or indirectly from the government. It's not clear to me how that's sustainable.

vips7L 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Healthcare really seems like the only safe direction anymore. They're needed and a human is still required to physically do it.

bilbo0s 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>It's not clear to me how that's sustainable

If it makes you feel better, I'm pretty sure it isn't sustainable. (But I'm not an economist so take that with a block of salt.)

I don't think anyone has the answers. It's just some of us are honest enough to concede we have no answers, while others promote an answer that aligns best with their belief system.

"It'll all work out."

"It's the immigrants/blacks/jews/whatever dragging us down."

"Nothing's going to happen and we can all continue doing the work we always have."

"Burn the rich."

Etc etc.

Not a lot of serious attempts out there at even getting a hand on the issues, let alone fixing the issues.

nemomarx 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm also pretty sure in the past industrial transitions, many of the people who lost their jobs at the start of the change never found better ones. It took a generation or so for new opportunities to really be found and fine tuned and you're competing for those new roles with younger people anyway.

If ai does take a lot of white collar work, is it a lot of comfort that maybe jobs in a very different sector will be better in 20 years?

rayiner 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Did the younger people find better jobs? You used to have all these jobs for people who were maybe a bit smarter than average with good judgment. In the 1990s, the local community college used to advertise associates degrees for paralegals. That's a job that doesn't exist in the same way anymore thanks to computers. Now it's become an internship for kids with top credentials before they go to law school. Which is fine for them, but what about everyone else?

It seems to me like all of these people are flocking now to healthcare fields. That seems totally unsustainable.

joe_mamba 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>It seems to me like all of these people are flocking now to healthcare fields. That seems totally unsustainable.

Why? There will never be a shortage of sick/dying people. So medical staff, and also undertakers, aren't going anywhere.

rayiner an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Because most healthcare spending comes from tax dollars.

jhrmnn 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

Is this a different route to the universal basic income scenario?

deflator 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

My understanding is that healthcare keeps growing because the large Boomer generation is aging. When they have passed though, then we should see a corresponding slide in healthcare growth

marcosdumay 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not in all past industrial transitions.

But yes, the argument has been wrong often enough that the people still repeating it as a rule should be mocked and ashamed.

bobthepanda 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s also not that true, and highly dependent on a lot of factors.

Anecdotally I see a lot of schadenfreude online about tech jobs after a decade or two of lecturing everybody from Appalachians in coal country, to Midwestern autoworkers, that they should just “learn to code.”

rurp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Totally agree, and would add another way “that’s what always happened in the past” is a terribly weak argument. Things might have always worked out at the societal level so far, but very often do not at the individual level. Countless successful craftsmen have had their livelihoods ruined by technological changes and spent their remaining years impoverished. How many people funding AI would be willing to throw their own life away for the good of some future strangers that may or may not be born? I'm pretty sure the answer is <=0.

antisthenes 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The classic example of how drastically this kind of thinking can fail is Malthusian theory, that populations would collapse because food growth was linear while population growth was exponential. This was true for all of history until Malthus actually made this observation.

Malthusian observation can still be true...It only has to be true once, and the only reason people say it isn't right now is due to industrial fertilizers and short memories.