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ls612 13 hours ago

Asymmetric cryptography and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. I’m not even joking all of the centralization of power and the rise of totalitarianism tech is driving is downstream from asymmetric cryptography.

grishka 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's not asymmetric cryptography itself. It's the fact that it takes enormous resources to manufacture modern SoCs, such that the economy only makes sense if you're churning them out by millions at least. It's also the fact that they can't be modified after they've been manufactured.

It's basically those people who can manufacture chips having technological supremacy over the rest of the humanity.

ls612 13 hours ago | parent [-]

It doesn’t matter if you can produce SOCs if your hardware isn’t trusted.

grishka 12 hours ago | parent [-]

What if you can copy someone else's SoC including their keys?

ls612 12 hours ago | parent [-]

I guess read-only memory is another requirement but that is very old technology we have never had asymmetric cryptography without read only memory.

__MatrixMan__ 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My introduction to asymmetric cryptography had to do with protecting myself from the authorities while buying drugs on the internet.

One of its first applications anywhere was protecting anti nuclear protestors from government provocateurs.

We could prevent so much fraud of we could only convince the credit card companies to start using it (instead of printing a symmetric secret on the outside of the card).

It's predominantly a force for good. If anything, its a bit anarchical.

What you're noticing is not the leading edge of set of harms brought about by asymmetric cryptography, but rather the late stage of adoption where the bad guys realize that their enemy's sword has had two edges all this time. Every technology that mediates an adversarial relationship goes through this eventually.

With the printing press came temporary freedom followed by intellectual property. So too with radios and the FCC. So too with social media. It's useless to blame the technology. Blame the people.

ls612 9 hours ago | parent [-]

My point is that as far as I understand (not a cryptography expert) once you have the mathematical concept of asymmetric cryptography you also have the mathematical concept of a certificate, so you can't have one without the other.

__MatrixMan__ 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Well, it goes one way, so yeah you can't have a mathematically verifiable certificate without asymmetric key-pair cryptography.

It's just that there's nothing pro-authority about making it easy for people to verify: "this data hasn't changed since the signer signed it." It's a neutral capability.

There are cases where we can and should blame technologists for building antisocial things that shouldn't exist, but I think that cryptography for the most part falls on the pro-social side of that spectrum.

userbinator 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is an extreme opinion and is not surprisingly unpopular and downvoted but one must realise that it is exactly how the governments were thinking when they wanted to ban encryption, and how the export restrictions and classification as a munition came about. Now companies are wielding it against us.

amarant 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

FFS, cryptography is not the problem. How many times will we have to shut down that particular stupidity? Asymmetric cryptography is a corner stone of basically all online secure communications, and has been since before Google and apple were even founded as companies! (First invented in 1970)

When did Https ever hurt you? That's built on asymmetric cryptography. Wherever you see the word "secure" it's basically shorthand for asymmetric cryptography.

Https

Ssh

Sftp

E2ee

It's asymmetric cryptography all the way.

ls612 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Easy there I don’t want to take away your encrypted messaging. I’m just pointing out that the technology that enables it also enables the techno-totalitarianism we have been seeing rise since the mid 2010s

amarant 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>Easy there I don’t want to take away your encrypted messaging

Then stop trying to take away the technology it's built on

nullc 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're just not going far enough-- the dual use technology suppressing human liberty in this case isn't asymetric crypto, it's _computing_.

krautburglar 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly. The weapon is available to all, but only parasites like FAANG can afford to hire the best brains who know how to wield it. As Apple uses it to take a 30% cut of everything on their device, the “democratized” PGP features in mom’s mail client gather dust.

nullc 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

you don't need asymmetric crypto to make remote attest like this.

Google can put a hmac key in each device which it knows and keeps secret. Device can author authenticated messages using it. Of course, only google can verify them-- but it appears that the workflow in this depends on google in any case and if anything that limitation would be more a feature to them than a bug.

13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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lpcvoid 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I disagree, I think you cast the net way too wide. Asymmetric cryptography enables secure communication in the first place. It's being used nefariously by Google and Apple, of course, but that's to be expected from big tech.

rossjudson 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nefariously how?

microtonal 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Remote attestation also uses asymmetric cryptography. (Device-bound private key that can sign attestation challenges, a known public key that can verify that challenge was signed with the device-bound private key.)

ls612 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Isn’t the ability to create certificates guaranteed conceptually once you have asymmetric crypto? In that case there is no intermediate technology which allows key exchanges without also creating digital totalitarianism.

lpcvoid 12 hours ago | parent [-]

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