> That's correlation, not causation.

Pragmatically, correlation *is* evidence of causation in favour of the best explanation, until somebody finds a better explanation.

> It could equally be argued that the AI slop that's being produced makes for a lot more vulnerabilities being shipped.

This is also true, and does not exclude the other, because for the moment the vast majority of production software in the world (and therefore the bulk of enticing targets) was written before AI. If LLM software will become prevalent in commercial setups, then LLM-generated code will eventually become the majority of targets.

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awesome_dude 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> Pragmatically, correlation is evidence of causation in favour of the best explanation, until somebody finds a better explanation.

Uh, no.

Correlation is only ever one thing - cause for investigation.

Everything based on correlation alone is speculation.

You can speculate all you like, I have zero issue with that, but that's best prefaced with "I guess"

edit: Science captures this perfectly, and people misunderstand this so fundamentally that there is a massive debate where people who think they are "pro science" argue this so badly with theists that they completely hoist themselves with their own petard.

Science uses the term "theory" because all of our understanding is based on "available data" - and science biggest contribution to humanity is that it accepts that the current/leading THEORY can and will be retracted if there is compelling data discovered that demonstrates a falsehood.

So - because I know this is coming - yes science is willing to accept some correlation - BUT it's labelled "theory" or "statistically significant" because science is clear that if other data arises then that idea will need to be revisited.

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ragall 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Very often you only have limited time for investigation and you have to act now. Action is almost always based on educated guesses.

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awesome_dude 5 hours ago | parent [-]

You have moved from "We know" to "We have an educated guess" which is the right way to couch things.

However I wanted to also point out that relying only on educated guesses can lead us into a position where we are "papering over the cracks" or "addressing the symptoms", not the "underlying cause"

Yes, sometimes that's all that can be done, but, also, sometimes it can be more damaging than the cause itself (thinking in terms of the cause continuing to fester away, whilst we think it's 'solved')

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ragall 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> You have moved from "We know" to "We have an educated guess"

No. You kept blabbering about "science" when most uses of knowledge are not about science. The original topic was also definitely not "science": it was about having a reasonable opinion about whether, empirically, the rate of discovery of vulnerabilities is increasing or not.

	▲	awesome_dude 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Trying to reframe this as 'not science' after being caught on a logical fallacy doesn't change the record. You started with a definitive claim ('We know') to shut down a question. When challenged on the lack of causation, you pivoted to 'educated guesses.' My point remains: if we misattribute the cause of the rising vulnerability rate (discovery vs. creation), our 'educated guesses' will lead to solutions that address the symptoms while the underlying problem continues to fester. Calling precision 'blabbering' is exactly how we end up with the 'false sense of security' mentioned earlier. Exhibit A: ragall 2 hours ago \| root \| parent \| prev \| next [–] > How do you know? We know because we could see the effects of the average rate of vulnerabilities discovery and exploitation, and it's definitely going up very fast. Until recently, vulnerabilities were relatively hard to find, and finding them was done by a very restricted group of people world-wide, which made them quite valuable. Not any more. Exhibit B: ragall 2 hours ago \| root \| parent \| next [–] Very often you only have limited time for investigation and you have to act now. Action is almost always based on educated guesses. reply