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Oras a day ago

Doesn’t increasing fuel price affect the electricity prices, which increases the charging cost?

mrob a day ago | parent | next [-]

The UK is well suited to wind power, already has many wind turbines, and continues to install more. We have a good amount of solar panels too. Renewables provide the majority of electrical power when conditions are good and the share will only increase. Electric vehicles avoid the biggest weakness of renewables (unreliable base load), because they can be set to charge unattended when cheap electricity is available. Electricity suppliers offer variable rate tariffs specifically for electric vehicles.

Gibbon1 20 hours ago | parent [-]

You start running numbers the cost of solar and wind capacity to power an electric car is about 10% of the purchase price. And considering they have a battery that can store a weeks worth of energy and spend 95% of the time just sitting. Basically not a problem.

bluGill a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe, in the best case, your gas engine is maybe 45% fuel efficient, but realistically, you're probably getting closer to 20-25%. By contrast, a combined cycle power plant gets over 60%.

But that's assuming we're just running power plants off of petrol and fuels. Coal is much cheaper than petroleum in some cases. There's also a lot of people who get their power from nuclear, hydro, solar, and wind. In many cases, your electric prices are not at all affected by the increases in petrullium prices, because most of your electricity is coming from something else. In fact, I doubt there's any place in the world that all your electricity is coming from petroleum fuels. Even if that's the major input, there are almost undoubtedly other sources in the mix.

rsynnott 21 hours ago | parent | next [-]

FWIW, I don't think there are any oil or coal power plants left in the UK. Certainly none in general operation.

philipallstar 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> By contrast, a combined cycle power plant gets over 60%.

Over 25% of this is then lost in transmission and distribution[0] (down to 45%). Then 10-25% of that lost in charging the car[1] (down to 40%). Finally, the car itself loses about 10-15% of that[2] (down to 35%).

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/322834/transmission-dist...

[1] https://go-e.com/en/magazine/ev-charging-losses

[2] https://evreporter.com/understanding-the-complete-efficiency...

hgomersall 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Total UK electricity consumption is around 300 TWh annually. That would put the grid losses at less than 10% based on your link. The charging is never as bad as 25% (internal house losses are negligible for any sensible charging rate) and the car is typically ~12% charging loss. Moreover, EVs recover quite a bit too. Even in purely dissipative driving (highway driving), I get around 4 miles/kWh, which is about 4 times better than an ICE vehicle.

Furthermore, if you're going to include distributional losses, then let's also drop the available petrol by 10-15% to account for refining etc.

Finally, on anything resembling a sunny day, my car charges entirely of rooftop solar, so what efficiency do we assign to that?

0cf8612b2e1e 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That first chart is in absolute units, not percentage.

25TWh annual distribution losses off of ~300TWh usage per year is 8% loss.

philipallstar 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh! Sorry, yes. @dang can I edit it, please?

tensor a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That depends entirely on where you are. In Ontario electricity is mostly hydro, nuclear, and renewables. But also, compared to burning gas directly, EVs are still more efficient and require less gas if you burn the gas to charge the EV.

rsynnott a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Somewhat. But price rises for electricity aren't remotely on the same scale as price rises for diesel and petrol, and fuel/electricity was a smaller part of the TCO to _start_ with for electric cars.

0cf8612b2e1e a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Electricity generation is already diversified. Nuclear, coal, gas, solar, wood, witches, etc. The fuel mix can be tweaked as the economics change. ICE vehicle fleet is stuck with one energy source.

KaiserPro 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Depends on how you charge and where.

If you charge at home, and you don't have a car tariff, it'll be ~25-30p per kwhr

If you get a car charging tariff then you'll be paying ~9p a kwhr.

if you are brave then you can use an agile prices which depends on the weather you can be paid to charge (my record was -11p a unit) however in winter it can be a lot high, like 45p a unit.

Charging on the street can be around 50p a kwhr up to 98p a kwhr

bdcravens a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Even then, EVs are still cheaper to operate.

izacus 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

UK has a massive new renewable installations which aren't affected by gas prices.

iso1631 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Electric price in the uk on an off peak tariff overnight is about 7p/kWh, or about 2p/mile, so charging your car overnight with the average electric mileage (10,000 miles a year - higher than the average mileage) costs £200, about £1300 a year less than petrol.

Oras 21 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Thanks, I didn’t know about variable tariffs. But can this be residential or has to be on designated charging points?

rsynnott 21 hours ago | parent [-]

Residential. Very common in the UK to have a separate night rate, even before smart meters.

bluefirebrand a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Can you actually get different tariffs in the UK for residential?

In Canada most of that is pretty opaque. Electricity tariffs are not really something that most households would worry about. Businesses and Industrial usage do though

longwave a day ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, there are multiple competing providers - all the electricity comes from a single grid but competition in how you are billed for usage.

Many people choose a single fixed or variable rate tariff, but there are also off-peak tariffs that are very cheap at night but slightly more expensive in the day (designed for EV users), or even tariffs where the rate changes every 30 minutes depending on what is being generated - in this case when there is excess solar and wind generation then sometimes the rate even goes negative and you are paid to use the excess power.

awjlogan a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, the newer suppliers have EV and solar friendly domestic tariffs. Plug it in overnight, and the supplier determines when the charge happens and charges at the reduced rate.

Symbiote 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A simple day and night tariff was introduced at some point in the 1980s in the UK.

Most places I lived had this set up.

(Nowadays smart meters offer many more options.)

iso1631 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure

You can base it on the wholesale price, great if you have battery storage

https://octopus.energy/smart/agile/

Or just an overnight rate

https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-go/

Again if you put in a £5k 10kWh battery you are golden, as you put 8kWh into your car and 8kWh into your battery every night, dropping your electric cost to £38 a month (plus the standing charge, which is far higher)