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| ▲ | dalyons 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Its time to call a spade a spade - the bulk of the PHEV category sold to date (with a few exceptions like toyota) has been an emissions scam, designed to skirt EU fleet emission laws. In practice, most are mediocre range, low-speed only evs that effectively no one bothers to charge regularly because its impractical and annoying. The manufactures claim 80% reductions in emissions, and use those credits to allow them to sell more gas cars in the EU market. But real world emission reduction is 20%. They know this, they've known for years. Its a scam. https://electrek.co/2026/02/19/biggest-study-yet-shows-plug-... Some newer toyotas, newer BMWs and the coming EREVs will actually be able to be electric cars most of the time, and might live up closer to the claims. Doesnt change the fact the category has been mostly fraud until now. | | |
| ▲ | appointment 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | To be fair, running electric only at slow speeds is still good, because it's slow, stop-and-go driving that benefits the most from electric. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | except, as the data shows, thats not enough to make much emissions difference. | | |
| ▲ | robocat 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Maybe blame consumers rather than manufacturers. And if a government sets up incentives incorrectly, blame the government schemes, not those using such badly designed incentives. The buyers wanted a petrol car. And they choose to fill with petrol. You need your own garage to make plugging in worthwhile (and avoid getting charging cable nicked). Consumers perhaps prefer to avoid the hassle of plugging in? In New Zealand there's a visible disincentive of a yearly tax on pluggable hybrids (to pay for road use). In NZ roads are paid by taxes earmarked for that. | | |
| ▲ | jemmyw 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | > In NZ roads are paid by taxes earmarked for that. It would be better to say that all of the money from road use and petrol taxes are spent on the roads. Those taxes don't actually cover the cost of maintaining the road system. At which point it kind of becomes moot that those taxes are ring-fenced for paying for roads. Since I've lived here people keep repeating that ring-fenced fact like its some kind of special thing. General taxation and council taxes are subsiding just the road maintenance, and completely paying for new build roads. | | |
| ▲ | robocat 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Those taxes don't actually cover the cost of maintaining the road system Yes they almost did. Only a few years ago the National Land Transport Fund (NLTF) was almost entirely self-sustaining, funded by road users. Recently Crown funding (grants and loans) expanded significantly to ~40% of fund income. But approximately 30% of government transport spending is being spent on rail (to placate voters I think). Before the Land Transport (Rail) Legislation Act 2020, not much we spent by the NLTF on rail. Currently ~3% of driven kilometres by car use electricity - so as that number increases, BEV and PHEV vehicles will need to have increased taxation. Presumably something like $700 per annum (currently about how much a person driving a petrol car pays on excise tax). Ultimately it is almost tautological that road users pay for roads, since government spending comes from taxes, and most people use cars. How things get earmarked is just sophisticated accounting. |
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| ▲ | bluGill 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I find that strange just looking at my current PHEV the engine now is at 75,000 miles or what my previous one was at only 30,000 miles. Most trips we barely use the intent if we use it at all, but every once in a while we do go on the long road trips. Plus, they are great for Americans who normally don't do those long trips, but they don't get rained to anxiety or any other issues with charging. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | 1. you are you and your data and your use. I believe you, but thats not useful compared to the real world data from "981,035 vehicles across Europe". 2. i suspect but i have no way to prove... the PHEVs sold in america tended to be way better EVs - there's no similar total fleet emissions laws so no incentive to subsidize shitty/fraudulent PHEVs in the US. |
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| ▲ | Sohcahtoa82 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In theory, a PHEV is the perfect middle ground for someone that wants to drive electric but has major range anxiety about road trips. Something with a 60 mile electric range will likely satisfy all of their day-to-day driving. The generator means they don't have to charge though, so they can still take road trips without worrying about electric range. In practice though, they're somewhat impractical. You still need an entire ICE drivetrain AND a moderately sized battery and electric motor, driving the price up. | | |
| ▲ | loudmax 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | My Prius Prime PHEV has a range of about 25 miles on battery. My daily commute to work is about 10 miles each way, so I can get to work and back on electric alone. If I happen to need to make a longer trip, then my car switches to gas. I plug in the car when I get home from work and I only need to refill the tank every few months. And even then, it's extremely fuel efficient because it's still a Prius. This has been a perfect car for my use case, but the big caveat is my short commute. If your daily commute fits inside that short range (or one way commute if there's a charger at your workplace), this can be a great fit. A+++, highly recommended. If your work commute is significantly longer than a PHEV's battery range, or if you don't have a convenient place to charge it, then it's a much less attractive proposition. | |
| ▲ | mschild 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not only somewhat impractical. Most people don't end up charging their battery because it still has an ICE so why bother? So now they have the worst of both worlds. Complex ICE machinery that needs regular service and heavy battery that doesn't end up being used. | | |
| ▲ | londons_explore 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Still gives decent efficiency improvements. You can always run the ICE at most efficient RPM. Never need to idle it, etc. You can also have a much smaller engine for a much bigger car, since you only need to cover average not peak power usage. You also in most designs eliminate the gearbox. | | |
| ▲ | mrob 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Only true for a plug-in hybrid with a series drivechain (a.k.a. "extended range electric vehicle"). The more common type has two parallel drivechains linked with clutches, so you still have all the drawbacks of a conventional internal combustion engine drivechain when you're using it. | | |
| ▲ | tzs 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The more common type has two parallel drivechains linked with clutches, so you still have all the drawbacks of a conventional internal combustion engine drivechain when you're using it I don't know about the whole world, but in both the US and Europe nearly half of the hybrids on the road are from Toyota, so unless nearly everything else is two parallel drive chains linked with clutches whatever Toyota does is the more common type. Toyota uses a series-parallel system that works by having a planetary gear system that connects the ICE, a large electric motor, a small electric motor, and a drive shaft all together. The planetary gear system functions as a power splitting device and a continuously variable transmission. It lets them direct power flow in a bunch of different ways. Here's a summary based on Wikipedia. (MB == the bigger battery, 12V == the regular 12V batter, ICE == the ICE engine, MG1 == the smaller electric motor, MG2 == the larger electric motor): • Aux power: MB -> DC/DC converter -> 12V • Charge: ICE -> MG1 -> MB • EV drive: MB -> MG2 -> wheels • Moderate acceleration: ICE -> wheels, ICE -> MG1 -> MG2 -> wheels • Highway: ICE -> wheels, ICE -> MG1 -> MB • Heavy power, such as on steep hills: ICE -> wheels, ICE -> MG1 -> MB, ICE -> MG1 -> MG2 -> wheels • Max power: ICE -> wheels, ICE -> MG1 -> MG2 -> wheels, MB -> MG2 -> wheels • Regenerative braking: wheels -> MG2 -> MB • B-mode braking: Wheels -> MG2 -> MB, Wheels -> MG1 -> ICE This is a big part of why Toyota hybrids are at the top of reliability rankings. Compared to a pure ICE they replace the clutch, the transmission, the starter motor, the alternator, the reverse gear set, and the flywheel with the planetary gear power splitting device. the two electric motors, and electronics. The power splitting device has very few movings parts--just the gears themselves, a pawl that can mechanically lock the gears when parked, and fluid pumps. The gears only move by rotating, unlike in a conventional transmission where they also change position. This makes their hybrids mechanically much simpler than a pure ICE. | |
| ▲ | appointment 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is something people say, but in practice the Toyota Prius is still a very reliable car. |
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| ▲ | mschild 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you charge the battery, sure. Most people simply don't. Data collected across 600.000 vehicles in Europe show that most people don't and that emissions are just a smidge under typical ICE vehicles. If you factor in the high emissions produced during battery productions it looks to be an overall bad package. The idea itself is certainly good but the real world simply doesn't show it. https://www.evshift.com/368695/do-people-actually-charge-the... | | |
| ▲ | fragmede 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | You have to factor in regerative braking. Toyota's had ~25 years to get their system dialed in. Hybrid is worth it unless you're only ever doing freeway speeds flat out with no braking. | | |
| ▲ | londons_explore 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | As a Toyota hybrid owner, you see that Toyota's design is kinda at a local optimum, hitting limits in every direction which sometimes rear their head in the user experience. For example, the sluggish 0-60 is due to the design being unable to get all the power from the engine to the wheels at slow speeds, due to the electrical path through the CVT gearbox being too small. The funny noises when going down really big hills are due to the system having no way to dump excess energy after the battery is fully charged and being forced to rev the engine at 5000 rpm with no fuel to waste some. The slow throttle response is due to the engine always running at 80% throttle for efficiency, which means if you suddenly need more power you can only quickly get an additional 20% before waiting for the rpm to slowly rise and give lots of power in a few seconds. EV's do have similar design limitations (drive on a racetrack and you'll need to let the hardware cool between laps), but they seem easier to overcome by simply sizing the system slightly bigger to hide the limits. | | |
| ▲ | fragmede 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | You make valid points, but to get almost 40 mpg in something that would get closer to 20 mpg without the hybrid system, there are gonna be some drawbacks. |
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| ▲ | hgomersall 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Small batteries mean heavy cycling of those batteries. When on pure EV, the oversized battery means most days you sit in the middle third of the battery which is great for battery longevity. |
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| ▲ | numpad0 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I wouldn't be sure if that's often the case, most PHEVs are just minor upgrades over existing hybrids. The electric motors on most hybrids, except the Nissan system, tend to only cover zero to city speeds. They need the gas engine connected to handle highway and ramp situations. | | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is not true. Popular PHEVs like the Prius Prime can go any speed you like on batteries. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It is true. most are much worse at being EVs than the toyota prime models. Toyotas were the top of the euro data on real world EV-only use. Every other manufacturer ranges from worse to hilariously worse. Toyotas are not over half of sales, so therefore "most" applies. | | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're making this outlandish claim so it is on you to name any currently or recently-marketed PHEV that can't reach highway speeds in EV mode, and to demonstrate that this constitutes "most" of the market or installed base. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | its been widely reported on. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/feb/18/plug-in-... https://electrek.co/2026/02/19/biggest-study-yet-shows-plug-... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/16/plug-in-... the link to the underlying most recent fraunhofer study referred to by the first two seems broken sadly, so i cant get the breakdown by manufacturer anymore. But the data on aggregate is clear - on average the PHEVs cars out there today spend very little time on average in pure EV mode. If they did there would be more than ~20% reduction in emissions. | | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | You are not addressing the claim that PHEVs can't reach highway speeds on batteries. That is a ridiculous claim, and it is false. You will not be able to name even one PHEV on the market with this limitation, because they do not exist. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | its acceleration that causes them to drop out of EV mode, when the weak EV drives cant produce enough power. Can you accelerate all the way to highway speed in real world driving without it dropping out? for some yes, for many no, from the guardian article: "Even when the cars were driven in electric mode, the analysis found that levels of pollution were well above official estimates. The researchers said this was because electric motors were not strong enough to operate alone, with their engines burning fossil fuels for almost one-third of the distance travelled in electric mode." The manufacturers dont list this admittedly complicated crossover, so you cant say whether one does or doesnt from a spec sheet. The aggregate data is clear though. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Here’s an even better source, which makes it absolutely clear that their electric engines are too weak in the real world. “In practice, the combustion engine frequently assists the electric motor in CD mode, especially during acceleration, at higher speeds or uphill driving. On average, the ICE supplies power during almost one third of the distance driven in CD mode. This is largely due to insufficient e-motor power, as most PHEVs are not designed to operate fully electrically under typical real-world conditions.” “
The largest gap between WLTP and real-world PHEV emissions occurs in CD mode, often
referred to as an “electric” mode where real-world CD emissions are even higher than the
WLTP average. According to T&E analysis, real-world CO₂ emissions in CD mode average
around 68 gCO₂/km, which is nearly nine times as high as the estimated 8 gCO₂/km in CD mode
under the WL TP methodology, and almost twice the WL TP average overall emissions (including
both electric and combustion modes). In practice, the combustion engine frequently assists the
electric motor in CD mode, especially during acceleration, at higher speeds or uphill driving. On
average, the ICE supplies power during almost one third of the distance driven in CD mode. This
is largely due to insufficient e-motor power, as most PHEVs are not designed to operate fully
electrically under typical real-world conditions.
This relationship is illustrated by the correlation between e-motor-to-combustion-engine power
ratio and emissions in CD mode: vehicles with an average power ratio between electric motor
and combustion engine of 0.9, emit approximately 45 gCO2/km in CD mode. An average PHEV
with a ratio of 0.7 has emissions of around 68 gCO2/km. Vehicles in the lower decile in terms of
their ratio of electric motor to combustion engine power, where it drops to around 0.5, have
average CD mode emissions of 105 gCO2/km.
In real-world conditions, petrol PHEVs consume around 3 L/100km in electric mode.
“ https://uploads.transportenvironment.org/production/files/20... |
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| ▲ | loudmax 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, my Prius Prime handles highway speeds perfectly fine on battery. In fact, the acceleration is great in pure EV mode. It just doesn't have much range: only about 25 miles on my 2018 model. Newer models advertise up to 44 miles on EV. | | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure, that's the obvious downside of them. But in the role where they spend ~10h slowly charging overnight from a standard plug, about 25-45 miles is all you'd expect to enjoy in a steady state. I had a PHEV Honda and I put 20 gallons of fuel in it over 6 years. The system works in the niche for which it was designed. |
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| ▲ | 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | moepstar a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Which ones? A colleague drives a BMW 3something hybrid and as far as i know has a 14kWh battery.. Thats good for about a 100km, but i very much wouldn't consider that a "fully" electric car by any means (edit: did you edit your post? couldve sworn you said "fully electric" instead of "mediocre range"?)... Also, what most people don't realize: if you're only (or mostly) driving it electric, you're putting many more cycles onto that tiny battery. ...which usually costs as much as a "regular" EV battery, x times the size. https://evclinic.eu/2024/09/05/bmw-hybrid-repeated-battery-f... for example... | | |
| ▲ | alistairSH 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The latest Honda Civic Hybrid (and its Prelude cousin). The ICE is a generator under most use cases - it's decoupled from the drivetrain most of the time. That said, the battery capacity isn't great - you aren't going to complete many trips out of your immediate neighborhood on EV power alone. | | |
| ▲ | jeffbee 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's because hybrids aren't designed to do so. The battery is small in terms of both energy and power. Sometimes, if the car is initially pointed the right way, you could complete a very short downhill trip at low speeds without the engine starting. But hybrids are designed to run the engine often. The batteries are sized to capture approximately the kinetic energy of the moving vehicle when stopping, and discharge the same energy when starting to move again, and that's it. It's a great system, they all get 45+ MPG. |
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| ▲ | slaw a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | 2026 Denza D9 has 66.48 kWh plug-in hybrid battery pack https://carnewschina.com/2026/05/01/byd-deploys-new-heyuan-h... |
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| ▲ | WarmWash 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | ...and apparently most owners never plug them in, so people just burn expensive fuel to charge their battery, while offering little or no savings over a hybrid or just the gas version. |
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| ▲ | LeoPanthera a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Surely that's the "same as a battery but you can use petrol on long journeys" Not really. The petrol drivetrain takes up so much room there's no space for a large battery, so the much smaller battery will only take you a short distance if you used it alone, plus now it's much less efficient because you're carrying around a heavy engine with you. | |
| ▲ | swiftcoder a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Surely that's the "same as a battery but you can use petrol on long journeys" They put tiny batteries in a lot of plug-in hybrids. Unless you live very close to work, you’ll struggle to use it as primarily an EV | | |
| ▲ | vkou a day ago | parent [-] | | Commuter[1] PHEVs start at 30 miles EV range. Which is ~enough to cover the vast majority of commutes, and the majority of US commutes. Keep in mind that even if 20% of your commute is done on petrol, the other 80% isn't. --- [1] Yes, there are PHEVs with shorter ranges, but those tend to be weird luxury models that for some compliance reason have a battery strapped to them. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | the short ranges make them impractical and annoying to charge all the time, so people just dont in the real world https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/16/plug-in-... | | |
| ▲ | tzs 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | That data needs to be split out by how the person acquired their PHEV. In much of Europe the majority of PHEVs are purchased by companies because of tax incentives. I remember seeing a study which said that people who are driving a PHEV because it was assigned to them by their employer are much less likely to plug it in than are ordinary consumers who bought or leased a PHEV. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Does it? It’s a million cars sampled at random. Perhaps fleet affects that a little, but these are big numbers. Claimed 80% reduction in emissions, real world 20%. Some fleet skew is not going to impact that meaningfully > In much of Europe the majority of PHEVs are purchased by companies because of tax incentives. Love to see some evidence for that being the majority | | |
| ▲ | tzs 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | In Portugal a whopping 87% of PHEV registrations are to corporations [1]. It was close to 60% in the UK a few years ago [2]. This should not be too surprising, once you learn another fact that is probably more surprising: corporate sales make up a majority of car sales in much of Europe. Around 65% in Germany, 60% in UK, 55% in France (the 3 largest car markets in Europe). Corporate buyers love PHEVs. They get many of the same or similar tax breaks that full EVs get, whereas hybrids that are not PHEVs usually just get the same corporate tax treatment that ICE cars get. Even though a PHEV usually costs more upfront than a similar regular hybrid which usually costs more than a similar pure ICE, the tax breaks make the PHEV a better deal even if the company has no intention of ever plugging it in. Compare to individual buyers. They get much fewer incentives from the government. For them the higher cost of a PHEV over a regular hybrid only makes sense if they are going to plug the thing in. Countries are starting to phase out the PHEV tax breaks for corporations, so we should start seeing the percent of PHEVs that actually get plugged in start to go up. [1] https://theicct.org/publication/european-market-monitor-cars... [2] https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/car-industry-news/2022/05/3... | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Although outliers like Portugal are interesting, the whole EU averages are more useful. you are right in that corporate sales make up ~60% of new car registrations eu wide, that is kinda crazy. But 11.7% of EU corporate registrations are PHEV [1] versus 9.8% overall [2]. So, it’s a little higher, but not really meaningfully higher. So yeah, ~61% of new PHEVs registered to corporations. But I’m assuming a majority of those corporate cars get resold after a few years , entering the private registered market. So I don’t really know how to guess at the % of corporate ownership of cars currently on the road. Let’s wildly guess that half of new car reg corporate PHEVs are in private hands now. That leaves ~33% of total PHEVs corporate owned, which is a sizable chunk and would affect the statistics somewhat, if those folk truly have different behavior. Btw this analysis of the whole situation has a ton more data than the guardian I originally linked [3]. A huge part of the problem is even in full electric mode the PHEVs still used gas 1/3rd of the time due to weak ev engines. So even if plugged in they’re still a lie in real world emissions. So I doubt changing the corporate ownership % will change the results that much, but we’ll see. The biggest change to watch for will actually be once the UF (utility factor) for EU PHEVs is adjusted down in 2027 to match the real world emissions [3]. If they do that, I expect the category to collapse in sales as it won’t make sense for manufacturers to subsidize them as an emissions loophole anymore. [1] https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/eu-regulation-...
[2] https://www.acea.auto/files/Press_release_car_registrations_...
[3] https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/eu-regulation-... |
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| ▲ | alistairSH 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sort of... IIRC, the latest Honda Civic Hybrid has the ICE decoupled from the drivetrain most of the time (even if it is running to generate power), but it can couple to the drivetrain under some conditions? | | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That sounds like what the Chevy Volt did back in the day. Turns out that it just was not feasible to achieve higher efficiency through the generator when cruising on the highway than just direct driving the wheels. Almost certainly why nearly all hybrids have been parallel hybrids up to now. What is changing, I think, is that a significant number of people are warming to the idea of a BEV, and want all of the benefits of that, but want to fall back on gasoline in a pinch. Thus EREV, or series hybrid, which provides that crutch. Expensive, though. | | |
| ▲ | traderj0e 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm curious why exactly they haven't made 2-3 speed trans typical in EVs already, like Porsche did. Single gear is too inefficient at freeway speeds. Tesla supposedly solved this with dual-motor models where the second motor has a different final drive ratio, but I feel like that's more expensive than 2WD w/ trans, which doesn't need to be nearly as advanced as the ICE-driven kind. | | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | To my understanding the increase in efficiency is marginal at best, highway efficiency is completely dominated by wind resistance in either case. It would never come anywhere near paying for the increased cost or complexity of implementing the transmission. It may not be quite as complex as a five or six speed ICE transmission, but my bet is that it is much closer to that end of the scale than it is to a single speed reduction gearbox. |
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| ▲ | numpad0 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's just a regular transverse FF with the clutch sandwiched by a pair of motors... |
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| ▲ | rootusrootus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Surely that's the "same as a battery but you can use petrol on long journeys" No, that would be an EREV. | |
| ▲ | benj111 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | 45 to 65mpg is a near 50% increase. I would say that's "slight" | |
| ▲ | bluGill a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Depends on how you use it. Some never plug in. Some always do. I save a ton of money without worrying about range since there is always gas when I make a roadtrip |
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