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GuB-42 5 hours ago

If you follow Sabine Hossenfelder's channel, she has a MONDOmeter. With MOND (modified Newtonian gravity) on one side and dark matter on the other side.

As new papers come out the needle goes back and forth, and I guess that she will make a new video if she hasn't already, with the needle moving one step towards dark matter.

I find it interesting how it doesn't seem to settle. Dark matter is still the favorite, but there is a lot of back and forth between "MOND is dead" and "we found new stuff we couldn't explain with dark matter, but it matches MOND predictions".

PaulHoule 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

MOND does amazingly well at galactic rotation curves, less well at anything else. If you think it started with Vera Rubin in 1966 MOND seems natural, but if you know that it started with Fritz Zwicky in 1933 than dark matter is easier to believe.

adgjlsfhk1 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

MOND only really does well on galactic rotation curves because it has free parameters that are tuned to "predict" the correct answer for galactic rotation curves.

dnautics an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I think you mean LCDM only does well on galactic rotation curves because it has free parameters per galaxy. MOND only has one free parameter, maybe two if you use the MOND+Relativity model that doesn't work.

wetpaws 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

jahnu 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

There are galaxies that appear to be free of dark matter and rotate accordingly. How does MOND account for that?

My understanding is that these observations are a fatal blow to any serious MOND models.

fooker 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We are likely going to find out that both are unfixably faulty.

It'll take either the next Einstein or some groundbreaking experimental observation to get there in my opinion.

If it was possible to incrementally fix these theories, the army of postdocs working on these would have already done so in the last decade or so.

wongarsu 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But at least the experimental results disproving these incremental fixes should be exactly the kind of thing the next Einstein should need for coming up with an entirely new way of looking at things

fooker 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Interestingly, more often than not it happens the other way.

Some once-in-a-generation scientist has an intuition that turns out to be true and mathematically elegant.

It gets proven experimentally years or decades later.

Relativity was exactly like this.

messe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It was far from exactly like that. GR was in part prompted by the precession of the perihelion of mercury for which there was plenty of data.

anthonypasq 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

you think the deepest mysteries of reality and the universe should just reveal themselves because we have a couple thousand smart people working on it for... 10 years?

elashri 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

MOND is dead is a true statement if we say MOND is dead as a general theory of gravity. It does not mean is does not have its success with explaining galactic rotation curves but failing at mostly everything else.

cwmma 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

my understanding is that there are a few MOND champions who are still holding on to the idea while everyone else has moved on.

stronglikedan 4 hours ago | parent [-]

so MOND is the new String Theory...

layer8 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

String theory is still the leading contender for quantum gravity.

pfdietz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It never had the institutional imprimatur of string theory.

htx80nerd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dark Matter : supposedly makes up a big amount of the mass of the universe, but cant be seen, does not emit, absorb, or reflect light. Also it can 'pass through' other normal matter, and other dark matter.

It's basically magic aka not actually real, just something in vogue to pretend is real at the present moment.

pixl97 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I mean it's easy to say it's fake, but to counter this, why can a particle that only interacts with gravity not exist?

The neutrino is a good example of a particle that almost doesn't exist. They are produced in solar reactions in spectacular amounts. Trillions of them are flitting through you right now as if you don't exist. You'd need a light year block of lead to ensure you could stop one. Mind-boggling amounts of them have to pass through our detectors to see even a single interaction.

Simply put, the particle physics does not have to behave nice so you can sleep well at night.

pfortuny 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

We are still in the "ether" times of dark matter. We have still not had a Michelson-Morley experiment. That's it.

Not that I am saying it does not exist. Only that we do not have the means of falsifying it if it is false.

dnautics an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean sure nature has no obligation to not have a unfalsifable particle, but you wind up in weird places, like, there exists a distribution of dark matter that explains the poltergeist that knocked over your coffee cup last week.

njarboe 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dark Unknown Matter would be a better name for lay people to understand what's going on. I'm no cosmologist but isn't it just a placeholder for something that gravity interacts with (and not much else) and we don't know what it currently is. When we discover what it is the name will change.

_ZeD_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Or, you know, as aether.

It's a scientific theory. It's the best that we have right now to model the real world and be able to do prediction on its behavior.

Does it seems to be kept together by duct tape? Maybe.

Is it yet useful? Yep.

Will it be discarded if anything more fitting will came up? You can be sure of it.

Joker_vD 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, pretty much, which is why this adherence to dark matter seems even more puzzling: we already had a mysterious substance with nonsensical mechanical properties (perfectly solid, but has zero collision) that turned out to be completely superfluous; the actual answer was the different shape of the physical laws. Now we again have a mysterious substance with nonsensical properties (has gravitational pull, doesn't interact with normal matter in any other way) — could it be that it simply doesn't exist?

And it's not like the concept of aether itself was really all that useful for anything. The physicists wanted the light to have some mechanical medium to propagate through instead of being a thing of itself, that actual itself shaped mechanical media, not the other way around (mechanical properties arise from the E-M interaction, not the other way around), simply because all other known waves phenomena existed in mechanical media.

raverbashing 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

MOND is kinda like a dead horse now, that people like to keep flogging

I think it's possible for an alternative gravitational law to work, but not MOND

MOND is stronger at longer distances than Newtonian Gravity. To me that does not pass the sniff test. It could be a step in understanding a more exact law but to me it feels weird

vonneumannstan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Until you definitively rule out all the dark matter candidates or get a direct detection the controversy will remain

ReptileMan 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Once I joked that a lot of things in the universe make sense if you view it as a "simulation with optimizations like lazy loading".

sebzim4500 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah until you get to quantum computing and then it seems as if the universe is doing enormously more work than you would think necessary.

cvoss 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This comment and GP are two of the most concise and punchy descriptions I've ever heard of some of the deepest aspects of modern physics. On the one hand we have principles of locality and finite propagation speed, which limit the computational work to a small neighborhood, and on the other hand we have principles of non-locality and superposition, which cause the computation to explode as it swallows up potentially everything and every possible thing.

davrosthedalek 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It might just be a reflection of the architecture the universe simulation is running on...

pixl97 an hour ago | parent [-]

See Timmy, this is what happens when you run your universe on a holographic medium at an infinite distance.

fooker 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not necessarily.

You'd be correct given hidden variables.

But we know pretty convincingly that quantum anything does not have hidden variables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem

messe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It doesn't have local hidden variables. That's an important distinction.

I'm not sure a non-local hidden variable explanation of QM is any distinct from superdeterminism though.

D-Coder an hour ago | parent [-]

> non-local hidden variable

Like, global variables?

kps an hour ago | parent [-]

Naked singletons in your locality.

ReptileMan 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

But only if someone observes it. The act of observation forces reality into existence.

nathan_compton 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Everything we don't understand we conceptualize using the most similar tools which we do have command over.

cowl 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's funny how for MOND we cant accept that it has some unknowns yet but we are more than willing to accept the FULL UNKNOWN Dark Matter. it's easy. put "Dark" in front of something and you don't have to explain it at all, no matter that something else explains at least 60-70% instead of 0.

GuB-42 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Dark matter is invisible, but it isn't magic. It is not significantly different from neutrinos. No one seriously denies the existence of neutrinos nowadays, even though they are invisible (i.e. they don't interact electromagnetically).

Dark matter is actually a very parsimonious theory. None of the laws of physics have to change to accommodate it, unlike with MOND. We may not see it, but it has to move around and affect normal matter in predictable patterns consistent with our current understanding of physics. If it doesn't, then the theory is wrong and may need some revision (which may be a dark matter + MOND hybrid).

In parallel with the research that attempts to find the properties of dark matter that best describe our observations is research that attempt to find what other properties it may have. It is a new particle? Can it interact in ways other than gravity? We didn't find anything, but the universe is under no obligation to make things easy for us.

One possible idea called the "nightmare scenario" is that dark matter is made of particles that only interacts gravitationally. It is a perfectly fine theory, maybe the cleanest one, but unfortunately, it would mean that we may never be able to detect these particles because gravity is so weak that the required detectors would be way beyond our technological abilities.

gus_massa 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We make a similar guess for the stuff that is in the center of Earth. We measure local gravity and speed of sound velocity, and we guess here is liquid, here is solid, here is this rock, here is this another rock [1]. See for example https://www.livescience.com/64943-nobody-understands-the-gia... nobody has seen them, we guess they are there.

Dark matter is another guess. We guess there is more matter in galaxies than what the telescopes show. We can compare the amount of mater guessed from galaxy rotation with other measurements. In this case they compare it with the gravity between a few galaxies.

Nobody is happy that we don't know what dark mater is. There are a few theories, but none of them has enough experimental support. More lack of confirmed details in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter#Composition

[1] I don't know enough about rocks https://xkcd.com/2501/

cowl 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Dark matter is not another Guess. is no guess at all. its the same as saying the center of the earth is made of Dark Core. and when someone proposed liquid core, there would be papers how a liquid core doesnt explain 100 %, and neither does rock or solid so Dark Core it is because it's sIMpLer to have just one Dark Something than 3 different somethings to explain anything.

The fact that there are tentatives to identify what it might be does not ammegliorate the fact that at it's core (pun intented) Dark matter is something to make equations fit without any other thought behind it or whether there might be several things behind it or god forbid that we juddge the equations themselves. I mean we got relativity because of a minor discord with newtonian Laws. (the orbit of Mercury). just a tiny percentage of obeservable behaviour at that time but it was a different time. a time where you could bring down the existing science of the day for a tiny percentage and now we accept 90% observation disaccordance (dark energy+dark matter) with what the equation require.

yfontana 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> at it's core (pun intented) Dark matter is something to make equations fit without any other thought behind it or whether there might be several things behind it or god forbid that we juddge the equations themselves

Another way to interpret dark matter is that we can observe something using several different ways, but all those ways use gravity. When trying to observe this something using electromagnetism, we see nothing. It doesn't seem so crazy then to hypothesize that this something only interacts with gravity, and not electromagnetism.

bilkow 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I mean we got relativity because of a minor discord with newtonian Laws. (the orbit of Mercury).

I don't think that's true. One of Einstein's test for General Relativity, using Mercury's orbit, came around 10 years later after special relativity was proposed, which is understood to be motivated by both Maxwell's equations and experimental results suggesting that the speed of light (electromagnetic waves) not depending on the frame of reference. General relativity (explaining gravity) seem to have been motivated by Newton's gravity not playing well with Special relativity (with mass being relative and all).

I understand the frustration with Dark Matter, but my understanding is that Dark Matter is a guess that is known to be incomplete. Scientists are shooting everywhere to try to explain the discrepancy in gravitational effects and some form of undetected matter is currently the best hypothesis (but not the only one). You say that "we accept 90% observation disaccordance", but the source of its effect is being searched for.

See:

- https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/622/what-was-einstei...

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gravitational_theor...

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity

Edit: formatting, updated links

gus_massa an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> just one Dark Something than 3 different somethings to explain anything

There are many candidates and I think nobody discarded it's a mix, it looks like a plausible scenario. I made a quick look in Wikipedia, but I didn't find anything relevant to a mix of Dark Mater.

There is(was?) some big discussion about cold vs hot (and warm?) dark mater. IIUC "cold" dark mater won. I'm not sure if there is enough details to make a good guess of the split, or if it's a 100.00% vs 0.00% case.

wetpaws 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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