I just don't see the appeal when it's much easier to just build a nice website using JavaScript.

Google Search doesn't work without JavaScript.

Seriously, what's the point? Don't just reflexively downvote me. Try to articulate why this is a good idea. It's not that hard to use your words.

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OuterVale 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're pre-emptive hostility seems rather unwarranted.

This article is my usual go-to and lists several reasons why JavaScript might not be available, and thus why you shouldn't take it for granted: https://piccalil.li/blog/a-handful-of-reasons-javascript-won...

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mr_mitm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I feel compelled to add:

- the user explicitly disabled JavaScript

- the browser does not support JavaScript (I sometimes view websites using elinks)

AFAIK screen readers also work better without JavaScript, so it's also an accessibility issue.

	▲	jazzypants 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		JavaScript doesn't effect screen readers at all unless you dynamically add content without the proper ARIA roles. It is trivial to correct. As I just said, users who explicitly disable JavaScript cannot even use Google Search. Why should I accommodate those users when even Google refuses to do so? They are actively choosing to have a limited web experience. The vast majority of the internet is completely broken for them.

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jazzypants 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How am I being hostile? I'm just tired of being downvoted every single time I mention that JavaScript is necessary on the modern web, and attempts to avoid it are quixotic at best.

That link is not nearly as convincing as you seem to think it is. I suppose that I will need to refute the points if I want you to stop sharing it, so here we go:

A browser extension has interfered with the site - okay? That can be true of literally anything. An extension can interfere with View Transitions too.

A spotty connection hasn’t loaded the dependencies correctly - Either they load or they don't. How would the dependencies load "incorrectly"? Does this author know how JavaScript works?

Internal IT policy has blocked dependencies - How? Are they bundled? Does this author still think modern websites load things like jQuery from a CDN? What year is it? (WYII from this point on, for the sake of brevity)

WIFI network has blocked certain CDNs - WYII

A user is viewing your site on a train which has just gone into a tunnel - The CSS and HTML won't load either!

A device doesn’t have enough memory available - WYII???

There’s an error in your JavaScript - and, you don't have any tests? You didn't notice when developing the site? Can you not have errors in your CSS? Sure, an error in JS is worse, but that doesn't mean you should never use it.

An async fetch request wasn’t fenced off in a try catch and has failed - This usually wouldn't change anything. fetch failures are rarely actual errors (even a 500 response doesn't result in an exception), and it's async so it wouldn't affect the initial load.

A user has a JavaScript toggle accidentally turned off - The <noscript> tag exists.

A user uses a JavaScript toggle to prevent ads loading - <noscript>

An ad blocker has blocked your JavaScript from loading - Modern ad blockers are URL based. How are they loading literally anything else from my domain?

A user is using Opera Mini - No, they aren't.

A user has data saving turned on - Okay... And!??!?!

Rogue, interfering scripts have been added by Google Tag manager - Do I really need to explain how module scoping works here?

The browser has locked up trying to parse your JS bundle - This literally doesn't happen.

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ivan_gammel 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>A spotty connection hasn’t loaded the dependencies correctly - Either they load or they don't. How would the dependencies load "incorrectly"?

Let‘s say you have 5-7 dependencies to load, but 3 of them timed out because your train entered the tunnel. Your app ends up in incorrect state, fails silently and UX degrades unpredictably. This is where the conversion often drops visibly and the reason SSR is now a go-to solution for any marketing website.

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jazzypants 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Why am I loading dependencies from 5-7 places? Why is my website not using a bundler if it has so many varied dependencies? Why do we not expect the user to understand that they are in a tunnel without internet?

Regardless, this isn't really restricted to the usage of JavaScript. The website would likely have pretty bad UX if only half of the CSS loaded correctly, but no one programs defensively around it being absent.

	▲	ivan_gammel 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Have you ever developed an enterprise scale frontend applications optimized for conversion targets? It feels like you have not. You may ship your own code in a bundle, yes. All integrations come on top of that. That chatbot, tracker, A/B testing logic etc - all are loaded separately from your service provider CDN. An user opening a web page is not expecting a full-blown app with multi-second loading times. If that happens, they bounce, and you loose revenue. Web is supposed to have very short time to first content paint and very short time to interactive, the shorter, the better, less than 0.5s is the goal. It can deliver that, if built properly. Many SPAs, bulky JS apps are built this way for developer convenience, not for end users. The only real use case for SPA is when you deal with a lot of local data. A spreadsheet, document or image editor, a diagram tool (but then wasm is probably a better choice). You may say, you are not building enterprise grade frontend. But if you are small enough, you don’t need SPA either.

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M95D 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I'm just tired of being downvoted every single time I mention that JavaScript is necessary on the modern web

Downvotes should give you a hint that the few users that know what javascript is, don't like it, and the rest of them, if they learned, most likely won't like it either. Your attitude shows that you don't care.

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voidUpdate 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why wouldn't google work without javascript? Just use some forms, submit the text the user entered, get back a page with the search results...

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rikroots an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> when it's much easier to just build a nice website using JavaScript

I'm currently building a web-based tool that uses dynamic forms for UI, without the help of of a framework (yeah I know; I have reasons). This is the result: https://github.com/KaliedaRik/sc-filter-builder/blob/main/js...

It's not "easier" using Javascript; raw Javascript websites are a nightmare to build, maintain and reason about. It is "easier" with Javascript + current-favourite-framework-of-the-day.

Also: accessibility, SEO, the all-new Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) thing, etc.