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jdw64 4 hours ago

How can we solve this at a more fundamental level?

I think many people already recognize the problem:

-“Our ability to write code is being damaged.” -“If our ability to write code declines, our ability to recognize good code also declines.”

But the problem is that the market no longer works without LLMs.

Freelance rates and deadlines are now calibrated around LLM-assisted output. Even clients who write “do not vibe code” often set deadlines that are impossible to meet unless you use something like vibe coding. The client’s expectations themselves are becoming abnormal.

That is the irony of the market.

I honestly do not know what to do.

Recent Hacker News discussions are mostly a negative echo chamber about AI use. In other places, it is often the opposite: only positive echo. But almost nobody discusses the actual solution.

The main topics I keep seeing are roughly these:

1. Is the large repository PR system failing a fundamental stress test? Or should AI-generated(GEN AI) code simply not be merged? If PR review is moving from handmade production to mass production, how should the PR system change? Or should it remain the same?

2. As vendor lock-in continues, can we move toward local LLMs to escape it? Are cost and harness design manageable? What level of local model is required to reach a similar coding speed?

3. If we are forced to use agentic coding, how do we avoid damaging our own ability to code? There is a passage from Christopher Alexander that I keep thinking about:

“A whole academic field has grown up around the idea of ‘design methods’—and I have been hailed as one of the leading exponents of these so-called design methods. I am very sorry that this has happened, and want to state, publicly, that I reject the whole idea of design methods as a subject of study, since I think it is absurd to separate the study of designing from the practice of design. In fact, people who study design methods without also practicing design are almost always frustrated designers who have no sap in them, who have lost, or never had, the urge to shape things.” — Christopher Alexander, 1971

This quote feels relevant to programming now. If we separate the study and supervision fo programming from the actual practice of making, something important may be lost.

In architecture, there is this idea that without practice, the architect loses meaning. But now the market is forcing the separation.

People with enough symbolic capital and high status have the freedom not to use AI. But people lower in the market are under pressure to use it.

So I think the discussion now needs to move beyond whether AI coding is good or bad.

The real question is How do we keep using AI because the market demands it, while still preserving the human practice that makes programming meaningful and keeps our judgment alive?

I think these are the important question. How do you maintain market value without using AI?

Or, if you do use AI, how do you avoid being treated as low-quality?

If you do not use AI, how can you remain more competitive than people who do use it?

If you do use AI, what advanatge do you have over people who do not use it, and how should you position yourself?

I know that agentic coding can cause skill degradation. I can feel it happening to me already. But for someone like me, who does not have strong status, credentials, or symbolic capital, social and market pressure makes AI almost unavoidable.

What frustrates me is that I do not see practical answers anywhere.

hunterpayne 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"How can we solve this at a more fundamental level?"

Stop using AI for coding. Period...there is no other solution. You can't make it work, nobody else can either. Without determinism, the entire process is useless. We need to stop trying to act like we all know that this isn't true. We have given it a chance, it failed, time to move on to something else no matter how much the VCs and execs don't want to. Those that do move on have a chance, the others have no future in software.

Saline9515 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The issue is that you will end up without a job if the trend continues. It's similar to many cases of technical innovation - you can still have a few workers who do handcrafted works, but most of them have to use the machines, that may produce work of inferior quality but at much higher speed.

The market realigns, and unless you handwrite the highest possible quality at a quick pace, you won't be competitive with the vibe-coders who can fix a hundred issues a month.

It was the same with gps-assisted driving, now most people can't orient themselves autonomously. Worse, there are no roadsigns with directions installed, meaning that you are stuck with using the GPS.

hunterpayne 3 hours ago | parent [-]

"unless you handwrite the highest possible quality at a quick pace"

That's exactly what I do. I know I am lucky to be gifted in this skillset. But that's not a good reason to excuse people destroying the market for everyone.

jdw64 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I agree with what you are saying, but if I cannot get work, I may literally have nothing to eat tomorrow.

So while I agree with your point, it does not feel like a practical answer for my situation. For someone who is already well known and has enough reputation, refusing to use AI may be a matter of principle. But I am dealing with survival.

I do not think your answer is bad. But because this is a survival problem, it is difficult for me to risk everything on principle.

In other words, I know that your answer may be the morally correct one. If everyone boycotted this, perhaps it would not be adopted so aggressively.

But I cannot do that.

What I need is a way to use AI while degrading my own ability as little as possible, and while still preserving my skills.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying that your answer is too idealistic for someone in my position.

hunterpayne 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm not being idealistic. I'm being very practical. You have the survival problem exactly backwards. Continuing to use it, that's the real danger in a practical sense. That only leads one direction and that direction isn't in your best interest.

tap-snap-or-nap 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I use AI mainly to improve the parts which I know I am pretty bad and need help and restrict it as I gain competency. Which means choosing to say no to copy pasting most things I wish to exercise my brain for and reading, understanding, processing and writing it more diligently. Treating brain like any other muscle that requires a gym, we do have cars and segways that can help us travel long distances quickly but we still require as a specie to walk and run. People with disability and underprivileged backgrounds also need these tools so it is a good option to have generally. Secondly we are human, we have made very good tools, we need to stop obsessing with being more productive in output and learn to be better, more considerate and respectful to each other and other species to make this planet generally for better world. It is the only one we got. At the same time, be more mindful about where and how we utilise our time and attention, they are very limited and the most valuable resources we can possibly possess.