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CamperBob2 3 hours ago

This is exactly what small claims court is for.

Small claims court is exempt from arbitration requirements (which are primarily aimed at avoiding class action suits). It doesn't require you to hire a lawyer, and probably won't get your account automatically nuked the way a credit-card chargeback would.

throwway120385 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're totally right! Please refer to paragraph 213 of your service agreement, in which you agree to binding arbitration with an arbiter of our choosing at your cost. I hope this answers all of your questions! Have a wonderful day!

ep103 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not legally enforceable, but absolutely something that it would say in order to dissuade you from going to small claims court

hvb2 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Just saying, small claims court is a farce. You can win, and then the losing side just ignores the verdict.

Then you can go back and figure out how to get your money, depending on the business this might be really hard.

And this isn't a hypothetical. I have had this and never seen any of the money from the judgement....

Animats 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

If the business has a physical presence somewhere, it's not hard. In California, you can get an order to the Sheriff for a "till tap" or an "8 hour keeper". A till tap means a sheriff's deputy or two show up and take the money out of the cash register. A "keeper" means they stand next to the cashier all day and take in money as customers pay. There are fees for this, a few hundred dollars, and they're added to the judgement, so the creditor doesn't end up paying.

The keeper can accept cash and checks, but not credit or debit cards.[1] So, while the keeper is present, the business cannot accept card payments. This disrupts most businesses so badly that they desperately scramble to come up with cash to pay their debt.[2] It gets the message across to management very effectively.

I've done this once. I got paid in full.

[1] https://sfsheriff.com/services/civil-processes/levies/carry-...

[2] https://www.grundonlaw.com/the-power-of-till-taps-debt-colle...

fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That will really depend on the business. You can absolutely escalate to seizing their assets (including legal fees for the whole process) assuming you can locate them. If they take the stonewalling to the extreme and have a physical location in many (most? all?) US jurisdictions you can show up with the sheriff and a box truck and start physically taking their things as compensation. There's bodycam footage of this if you're curious.

jdasdf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You request the judge to apply a lien on their assets. You take that to their bank and request that it be applied, and the money paid out.

If that doesn't work, you can always go to the police/bailiff with the court order and schedule a date/time for them to go with you to their offices to seize and auction off their stuff.

lolerica 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

does Murica not have bailiffs?

small claims court might not work against a dodgy builder, but it will certainly work against a company, with physical offices

if they don't pay up, you can literally walk into their offices and start taking their stuff, with the police supporting you

I'd start with the contents of Amodei's office

ep103 an hour ago | parent [-]

There are ways to dodge it.

A friend of mine did this for a shady company that turned out to be a 1 person company, that then dodged the fine basically by not paying and disappering. I don't know the details, but apparently something happened legally where the guy popped back up on the radar a decade later, a parking fine or something? And as a result the cops showed up to his house and started taking his stuff, causing him to actually pay the fine. I don't remember the details, but the point is it can apparently get somewhat crazy on a small size level, apparently.

massysett 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I sat in small claims court one day to watch.

A plaintiff won a judgment. He asked the judge: “what do I do now?” The judge replied: “well, if you’re reading the paper one day and see ‘defendant wins the Powerball,’ then you know exactly what to do.”

mothballed 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I've heard of people putting a lien on stuff like the employee's desks and chairs and then they surprise pikachu when the sheriff shows up and the assholes that didn't pay it have nowhere to sit. No idea if it's true, but it was convincing.

FireBeyond an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I remember someone attempting to sue my minor stepdaughter in small claims (which isn't a thing in WA, if you want to sue a minor you have to go to "real" court, but that's another matter).

Everyone all files in for the session and the Judge patiently explains... "we do not do enforcement here, to be very clear. A judgment in small claims means the court agrees you are owed what is owed in the judgment, no more. You can contain the Sheriff's Department, etc., for arranging enforcement of the judgment..."

Sure as shit, first case on the docket is some landlord/tenant dispute. Gets figured out and one of the parties is awarded $1,200... Very next comment out of his mouth, "Where do I go to pick up that check?" Judge, with a sigh, "As I explained twelve minutes ago, small claims court does not do enforcement". "I thought I went up front and picked up my check and then you got the money from him." "No. I am ... unclear ... why you think that would be the case."

I found myself wryly amused by this. Like the court is just cutting checks for every awarded verdict and "oh, we'll figure out how to make the loser pay somehow, but here, you don't need to worry about that, here's your check".

cyberax 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

JFYI, small claims are exempt from arbitration.

boh 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think you even need to go that far. Just refute the charges with your credit card. Very high likelihood of a successful refund since they already acknowledged their error in writing.

Arainach 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's a fundamental power imbalance: if you do this to any service, they will likely ban your account. So the monetary reward has to be enough to merit moving all your data and workflows off them in advance and never using them again.

pbhjpbhj 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

^ This.

I naively disputed Steam not honouring a refund (it was for about 0.5% of what I've spent with them up to that point), a couple of £pound at most. I'd paid by PayPal and as Steam refused to abide by UK law (Consumer Rights Act says broken stuff has to be fixed or refunded), I raised the issue with PayPal. I expected Steam would refund me, instead they did not dispute that they'd unlawfully failed to refund me, so PayPal - Steam's provider - cancelled the charge.

In response, Steam 'limited' my Steam account - effectively closing it temporarily. Now it's limited so they won't use PayPal to sell me anything now, so I haven't bought anything from them since [I have cashed in CS skins, and used that cash to 'buy' games].

It was an interesting lesson in 'might is right'. PayPal were able to refund the transaction because Steam want them and had no argument against the refund. Steam were able to cut me off because this appears to be a loophole in UK consumer law - sellers who break the law can just dismiss buyers who ask for refunds. Lesson learnt.

From Steam's point of view, they pissed off a customer and probably burnt 30mins-1hour of support time in answering my requests, way more than the cost of the refund. But selling games, which I later found Steam knew was broken, and then not refunding because I had the tenacity to try and fix it - meaning that the game sat open for longer than their auto-refund time - is not on imo. Petty of me for sure. Crap of Steam too.

fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm surprised UK law doesn't prohibit retaliation against the customer for insisting on his legal rights.

Not petty of you IMO. It's what everyone ought to do but it's inconvenient so most people don't.

Ekaros 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Why should they? Freedom of association is key Western principle. Steam chose not to associate with them anymore. If the user don't like it they should have sued them in court instead.

fc417fc802 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

If I report my employer for an OSHA violation and they retaliate that's illegal. Of course such laws hardly ever stopped anyone so it's a very bad idea to depend on it but the principle is certainly there.

Cpoll 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Being able to freely threaten reprisal against people exercising their rights circumvents those rights.

Freedom of association applies to individuals; it's a non-sequiter here.

fc417fc802 an hour ago | parent [-]

It's relevant in that businesses generally also enjoy freedom of (non)association but obviously that's not an absolute.

gblargg 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I grew up when we owned game systems and the games, and they couldn't phone home to see if I still had permission to play. I was recently considering installing Steam but this kind of thing gave me pause. I couldn't invest any money in something that could have the rug pulled out from at any time.

boh 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No that's not how that works. This stuff is a non-event. You refute the balance, they have a period where they can defend their claim (8/10 times they don't), you get your money. This is a very basic transaction that happens every single day to every major company. "Banning" you costs more than your refund and has additional legal risks.

I know being helpless against tech companies is a major trope in these comments but this is basic everyday transaction stuff. Plan on being on hold with your credit card company but not being a central target for a trillion dollar AI startup because you asked for a $100 refund.

notatoad 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I can tell you first-hand (from the side doing the banning) that you’re wrong.

You’re not going to get an email telling you that you’re banned. Your payments will just start being declined, and they won’t be able to help you. They’ll suggest you try another card. That won’t work either.

Maxmind includes a “chargeback risk score” in the api response for everybody who uses their minfraud service. They’re not doing that because companies don’t use it.

mothballed 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah unless you refute ebay.

A scammer went to the trouble of creating an entirely different ebay account registered to literally "pirate[xxxxx]@..." using my same name. Then they found a tracking number to my same zip code. Then they bought (fake) items from a second scammer account using my stolen credit card to "wash" the money.

When I filed a chargeback ebay came back with a fat stack of paperwork and absolutely fucking buried me. They had the tracking number to "me", they had "me", they had the invoices to "me", they had my credit card, and their lengthy report had all the right words in all the right places and dressed up in all the right banking mumbo-jumbo and they convinced my bank so well that my bank suggested I was a fraudster myself and then my bank closed my accounts. I couldn't even sue them because at that precise time I moved cross country and couldn't get to the court to sue them in. I ended up eating the better part of $1000.

Ebay is absolutely fucking savage at chargebacks. They appear to have people trained specifically to bury in paperwork anyone that tries to challenge fraudulent charges.

lokar 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They won’t ban you for going to small claims court?

pxx 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

maybe. but somebody has to manually ban you if you do that. whereas banning everybody who charges back can easily be done in batch on the billing side

andylynch 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Retaliating against someone for asserting their legal rights also gets way riskier what they have already won in litigation.

lokar 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Good point. one off banning by hand may not be worth the effort, but some code to automate it probably is.

criddell an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You can always ask the judge to add include in the judgement an order that Steam not retaliate by banning or limiting your account.

celeritascelery 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would be that would be highly unlikely to succeed. I have tried to dispute charges with my credit card for similar issues, and they always side with the business. I don’t think I they even check.

true_religion 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can companies decide not to serve you on the basis of a successful lawsuit you had against them?

If not, then it might be better to go the small claims court route.

cute_boi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

doing charge back means Anthropic will ban you forever.

fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Probably, but if a business cheated me out of that much I wouldn't be doing business with them again regardless so at least to me it would make no difference.

bombcar 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you file pro se and even if you've agreed to ten thousand arbitration clauses, they'll at least have to spend $200 on a lawyer to respond.

So, you can waste as much of their money as they wasted of yours.

Iolaum 3 hours ago | parent [-]

$200 for you is not the same as $200 for them

lynndotpy 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

With an Anthropic engineer salary netting them about $200 per hour, yeah. Multiple people from Anthropic got eyes on this and saw it was no biggy.

It makes sense if you understand, to their eyes, that $200 is more like $10.

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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