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ceejayoz 2 days ago

Who defines "lawful" if Google and the Pentagon disagree?

> The classified deal apparently doesn’t allow Google to veto how the government will use its AI models.

Seems concerning?

CobrastanJorji 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's presumably the trick, and it's not a subtle one; it's why the article puts it on quotes in the headline. Google gets to claim that it stood up for principles because it boldly insisted that the government obey the law, and the government will claim that whatever it decides to do is lawful. It's the same as what OpenAI did except not handled buffoonishly.

f33d5173 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Lawful is presumably defined in the usual, common sense, ie we can do whatever the f we want until a court physically forces us not to.

dmd 2 days ago | parent [-]

And since the court has no way to physically force anything - that's the executive branch's function, (it's right there in the name) - lawful has no meaning whatsoever if it's the executive branch that wants to break the law.

muvlon 2 days ago | parent [-]

And the Pentagon has historically gotten away with damn near everything even in the judicial branch by appealing to national security.

impulser_ 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No it doesn't at all. Private corporations shouldn't be telling the government what it can and can't do. That's the job of the people. You want private corporation overriding your vote?

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Private corporations shouldn't be telling the government what it can and can't do.

So Google can't tell the government it needs a warrant to perform a search? Google can't sue over something the government did?

It's Google's product they want to buy.

serial_dev 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Just follow the orders, man!

red-iron-pine 2 days ago | parent [-]

don't worry about the people getting sent to camps. it's lawful so it's okay.

now follow orders.

impulser_ 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm talking about lawful, like it written in the terms.

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent [-]

But Google isn't, apparently, permitted to object "that's not lawful".

And again, it's Google's product. Why can't they set conditions? If I pay Google to host my email, I'm still subject to their policies.

yibg 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Of course it can. Terms of service and contractual obligation (should) apply to governments as well. Google is perfectly capable of outlining what's acceptable use and what's not, and the government is free to accept or reject and not use the product. Google is choosing not to set the boundaries.

xp84 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Agree. It seems on the surface convenient right now when people think the company (or rank and file employees?) are on their political “team” but they’d get less comfortable when oil companies or other “bad” companies dictate terms to the government. “We’ll provide fuel for the military if and only if you overturn the leader of $COUNTRY”

(Yes, I recognize that past military entanglements do read as favors for Big Oil, but that’s more because lobbyists directly purchased the corrupt and useless Congress)

noelsusman 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

In that scenario the President would invoke the Defense Production Act to compel the oil company to supply the oil. They threatened to use that power against Anthropic, though it's unclear how it applies to something like AI. "Claude without guardrails" is not a product Anthropic offers, so they would fight it on grounds similar to how Apple fought against being forced to crack an iPhone.

The main issue here is that Congress is asleep at the wheel and has refused to implement any sort of guardrails around how the government is and is not allowed to use AI.

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> “We’ll provide fuel for the military if and only if you overturn the leader of $COUNTRY”

A mechanism to address this exists, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950

none2585 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Corporations are people!

tdb7893 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Especially concerning with the how creative the executive branch can be when it comes to what laws mean. With little oversight, it seems guaranteed that it will be used for unlawful activities (despite whatever tortured argument some lawyer will have put into a memo somewhere).

xp84 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, they’re really bad! Seems like it might be time to try convincing people to vote for someone else! Democrats haven’t tried that play since 2012, preferring the “scorn and insult anyone outside your base” strategy that’s worked so well since.

cooper_ganglia 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Google should never be determining what is lawful or not.

kingleopold 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"who watches watchmen"

question as old as time itself

ApolloFortyNine 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This has to be one of the strangest "debates" in history.

Congress and the courts obviously.

If you think there's a hole in the law tell your congressman, don't, for some reason, try and put Google or any Ai company above the government.

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Congress and the courts obviously.

The first is fully neutered. The second is far too slow.

"Nothing unlawful" needing to be in the contract is inherently concerning, as it's typically the default, assumed state of such a thing.

deepsun 2 days ago | parent [-]

"follow the law" in contracts IMO is there to be able to claim a "breach of contract" by one party.

calgoo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Please! That ship sailed a long time ago. Sure tell your congressman, who is most likely bribed (lobbying is bribing, lets use the real words) by the same companies to accept the deal. The courts can try, but who is going to enforce it when the people above says that its fine.

belzebub 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's big air quotes energy in their statement

ethagnawl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The classified aspect is probably the most concerning. How can I write my representative (and expect a form letter response six weeks later) if I don't know what I'm objecting to or even if I should be objecting?

cooper_ganglia 2 days ago | parent [-]

Why would you write a letter if you don't know what you're objecting to or even if you should be objecting?

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Can't I object to not knowing?

cooper_ganglia 2 days ago | parent [-]

No, that's what classified means.

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent [-]

Surely I can complain about overclassification of things that should not be classified?

xp84 2 days ago | parent [-]

Absolutely. We will file your complaint in the appropriate location.

The location is classified.

Ok all jokes aside, if you suspect that there’s wrongdoing in the classified sphere, and it really matters to you, well, you should get involved in politics. We don’t just let everyone everywhere know everything, because we think it would be risky if Putin or the Chinese Communist Party also knew all those things. So we limit it to people who have taken oaths and are accountable and need to know (the military), the civilians who need to know (security clearance holders), and those who hold a high office with the public’s trust (high-ranking politicians). You can be a Senator. You just need a lot of people to trust you enough to vote for you. Or, and this is a bit easier, support politicians you do trust to vet classified things to be elected to high office, and ask them to look into it and give you their word that things are being done properly.

ethagnawl 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That's kind of my point? I'm concerned by what has been made available but can't form a complete opinion and decide if I need to take action without knowing the full extent of the agreement.

cooper_ganglia 2 days ago | parent [-]

Nor should you be burdened with that.

This is why we elect competent (hopefully) leaders to worry about these things for us. Mob rule democracy about every national secret would mean they’re not secrets for very long!

impossiblefork 2 days ago | parent [-]

Why should you not be burdened with that?

Surely you are responsible for the consequences of what you do, no matter how indirect? After all, we live in physical reality, not in some world of laws.

If you cause something you cause that thing. You are reponsible, even if it is through some long chain.

cooper_ganglia a day ago | parent [-]

> Surely you are responsible for the consequences of what you do, no matter how indirect?

No, that’s preposterous. You are not responsible for the actions of others simply because your actions put them in a place to perform said actions. That seems like a very stressful way to go through life.

impossiblefork a day ago | parent [-]

You have caused them. You exist in the environment you exist, not in some other environment.

dismalaf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

By definition "the law" is the set of laws that the government passes. So it's a roundabout way of saying the government can pretty much do what they want.

Also, this is probably the only acceptable arrangement when it comes to industry-government contracts. The government will always have more information than civilians.

jonathanstrange 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One thing is sure, they don't have international law in mind...

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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shevy-java 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It kind of reminds me of a mix of Skynet in Terminator and Minority Report. But nowhere near as interesting. More annoying than anything else.

I am kind of mad at James Cameron here. Skynet was evil but interesting. Reallife controlled by Google is evil but not interesting - it is flat out annoying.