Remix.run Logo
vidarh 4 hours ago

If you ask humans to explain why we did something, Sperry's split brain experiment gives reason to think you can't trust our accounts of why we did something either (his experiments showed the brain making up justifications for decisions it never made)

Bit it can still be useful, as long as you interpret it as "which stimuli most likely triggered the behaviour?" You can't trust it uncritically, but models do sometimes pinpoint useful things about how they were prompted.

tempaccount5050 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I think you might be misinterpreting that. I always understood it to mean that when the two hemispheres can't communicate, they'll make things up about their unknowable motivations to basically keep consciousness in a sane state (avoiding a kernel panic?). I don't think it's clear that this happens when both hemispheres are able to communicate properly. At least, I don't think you can imply that this special case is applicable all the time.

amluto 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Humans can do one thing that AI agents are 100% completely incapable of doing: being accountable for their actions.

jumpconc 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You haven't met certain humans. Not all humans have internal capacity for accountability.

The real meaning of accountability is that you can fire one if you don't like how they work. Good news! You can fire an AI too.

hun3 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But it's still a bit more difficult to sue them for leaking your company's data.

At least for now.

pessimizer an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Bad news! They will not be aware that you have done this and will not care.

Zak an hour ago | parent [-]

The purpose of firing a person shouldn't be vengeance but to remove someone who is unreliable or not cost effective.

It's similarly reasonable to drop a tool that's unreliable, though I don't think that's a reasonable description here. Instead, they used a tool which is generally known to be unpredictable and failed to sandbox it adequately.

bigstrat2003 an hour ago | parent [-]

The purpose of firing a person is to remove someone unreliable, but also, the person having that skin in the game makes him behave more reliably. The latter is something you cannot do with an LLM.

The cold hard fact is: LLMs are an unreliable tool, and using them without checking their every action is extremely foolish.

grey-area 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don’t forget learning, humans can learn, LLMs do not learn, they are trained before use.

addedGone an hour ago | parent [-]

They learn on the next update :p

quantummagic an hour ago | parent [-]

Yup. And eventually there will be online learning, that doesn't require a formal update step. People keep conflating the current implementation, as an inherent feature.

unyttigfjelltol 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I disagree. They could fire Claude and their legal counsel could pursue claims (if there were any, idk)-- the accountability model is similar. Anthropic probably promised no particular outcome, but then what employee does?

And in the reverse, if a person makes a series of impulsive, damaging decisions, they probably will not be able to accurately explain why they did it, because neither the brain nor physiology are tuned to permit it.

Seems pretty much the same to me.

antonvs 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That’s a feature that other humans impose on whoever’s being held accountable. There’s no reason in principle we couldn’t do the same with agents.

LPisGood 3 hours ago | parent [-]

How would you fire an agent? This impacts the company that makes the LLM, but not the agent itself.

jeremyccrane 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yep.

jayd16 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You might as well be asking a tape recorder why it said something. Why are we confusing the situation with non-nonsensical comparisons?

There is no internal monologue with which to have introspection (beyond what the AI companies choose to hide as a matter of UX or what have you). There is no "I was feeling upset when I said/did that" unless it's in the context.

There is no ghost in the machine that we cannot see before asking.

Even if a model is able to come up with a narrative, it's simply that. Looking at the log and telling you a story.

vidarh 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Sperry's experiments makes it quite clear that the comparison is not nonsensical: humans can't reliably tell why we do things either. It is not imbuing AI with anything more to recognise that. Rather pointing out that when we seek to imply the gap is so huge we often overestimate our own abilities.

jayd16 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It is non-sensical because you're simply bringing in comparisons without anything linking the two. You might as well be talking about how oranges, and bicycles think as well as that is just as relevant as how humans think in this discussion.

In fact, talking about "thinking" at all is already the wrong direction to go down when trying to triage an incident like this. "Do not anthropomorphize the lawnmower" applies to AI as much as Larry Ellison.

fluoridation an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Humans at least have a mental state that only they are privy to to work from, and not just their words and actions. The LLM literally cannot possibly have a deeper insight into the root cause than the user, because it can only work from the information that the user has access to.

abcde666777 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Slight pushback - I think there's still a lot more consistency and coherence in a human's recollection of their motives than an LLM.

Sometimes I think we're too eager to compare ourselves to them.

cmiles74 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

None of the developers that I’ve worked with have had the hemispheres of their brains severed. I suspect this is pretty rare in the field.

pixl97 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This still doesnt stop post ad hoc explanations by humans.

tempaccount5050 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I feel like your conflating a deep misconfiguration of a brain with lying. These things are completely different.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
pierrekin 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree that the model can help troubleshoot and debug itself.

I argue that the model has no access to its thoughts at the time.

Split brain experiments notwithstanding I believe that I can remember what my faulty assumptions were when I did something.

If you ask a model “why did you do that” it is literally not the same “brain instance” anymore and it can only create reasons retroactively based on whatever context it recorded (chain of thought for example).

XenophileJKO 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Anthropic's introspection experiments have seemed to show that your argument is falsifiable.

https://www.anthropic.com/research/introspection

sumeno 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> In fact, most of the time models fail to demonstrate introspection—they’re either unaware of their internal states or unable to report on them coherently.

You got the wrong takeaway from your link.

XenophileJKO 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The parent said: "I argue that the model has no access to its thoughts at the time."

This is falsified by that study, showing that on the frontier models generalized introspection does exist. It isn't consistent, but is is provable.

"no access" vs. "limited access"

sumeno 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There is no way for a user to know whether the LLM has introspection in a given case or not, and given that the answer is almost always no it is much better for everyone to assume that they do not have introspection.

You cannot trust that the model has introspection so for all intents and purposes for the end user it doesn't.

dwheeler 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I would say "limited and unreliable access". What it says is the cause might be the cause, but it's not on any way certain.

fragmede 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Claude code and codex both hide the Chain of Thought (CoT) but it's just words inside a set of <thinking> tags </thinking> and the agent within the same session has access to that plaintext.

fc417fc802 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Those are just words inside arbitrary tags, they aren't actually thoughts. Think of it as asking the model to role play a human narrating his internal thought process. The exercise improves performance and can aid in human understanding of the final output but it isn't real.

antonvs 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Why do you believe that humans have access to an “internal thought process”? I.e. what do you think is different about an agent’s narration of a thought process vs. a human’s?

I suspect you’re making assumptions that don’t hold up to scrutiny.

fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I made no such claim and I don't understand what direct relevance you believe the human thought process has to the issue at hand.

You appear to be defaulting to the assumption that LLMs and humans have comparable thought processes. I don't think it's on me to provide evidence to the contrary but rather on you to provide evidence for such a seemingly extraordinary position.

For an example of a difference, consider that inserting arbitrary placeholder tokens into the output stream improves the quality of the final result. I don't know about you but if I simply repeat "banana banana banana" to myself my output quality doesn't magically increase.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
jmalicki 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It does have access to its thoughts. This is literally what thinking models do. They write out thoughts to a scratch pad (which you can see!) and use that as part of the prompt.

fc417fc802 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's important to be aware that while those "thoughts" can be a useful aid for human understanding they don't seem to reliably reflect what's going on under the hood. There are various academic papers on the matter or you can closely inspect the traces of a more logically oriented question for yourself and spot impossible inconsistencies.

mmoll 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It doesn’t mean that these “thoughts” influenced their final decision the way they would in humans. An LLM will tell you a lot of things it “considered” and its final output might still be completely independent of that.

jmalicki 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Its output quite literally is not independent, as the "thinking tokens" are attended to by the attention mechanism.

grey-area 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They do not in fact do that. The ‘thoughts’ are not a chain of logic.

sumeno 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the model is doing. It's not your fault though, you're buying into the advertising of how it works

4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
emp17344 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That is absolutely not what the split brain experiment reveals. Why would you take results received from observing the behavior of a highly damaged brain, and use them to predict the behavior of a healthy brain? Stop spreading misinformation.

nuancebydefault 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Such 'highly damaged' brain is still 90 percent or more structured the same as a normal human brain. See it as a brain that runs in debug mode.

It is known that the narrative part of the brain is separate from the decision taking brain. If someone asks you, in a very convincing, persuasive way, why you did something a year ago and you can't clearly remember you did, it can happen that you become positive that you did so anyway. And then the mind just hallucinates a reason. That's a trait of brains.

vidarh 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because said "highly damaged brain" in most respects still functions pretty much like a healthy one.

There is no misinformation in what I wrote.