I keep hoping the Common Lisp community will step up and deliver better Visual Studio Code support. Asking new devs to learn Emacs, alongside all of Lisp's idiosyncrasies, is too tall an order. I bro'd through it in the 90s but today's new devs have been spoiled by modern UIs (and that's a good thing) and shouldn't have to cope with Emacs and its stubborn retroness.

Seeing something like this is a step in the right direction.

▲ Jach 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, I mean there is some support for various editors (https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/editor-support.ht...) including VS Code (https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/vscode-alive.html), but it's kind of rough (https://blog.djhaskin.com/blog/experience-report-using-vs-co...) and not exactly feature-complete with the emacs experience, plus you're still left having to figure out how to install and setup a Lisp implementation and quicklisp. I like that mine solves those for a newcomer, especially on Windows. (I myself use vim + slimv, but even that isn't quite at parity in some respects with emacs. The biggest weaknesses are around debugging, especially in the presence of multiple threads. But the essentials do work (stepping, eval-in-frame, continuing-from-a-stack-frame, selecting the various types of restarts, compiling changes before selecting restarts) so I'm still fairly productive and don't feel like I'm lacking anything sorely needed for professional work. I've hacked together some automatic refactoring bits as well, which emacs doesn't have either, and I'm eventually going to make a separated GUI test runner.)

I've been kicking the tires with mine a little bit yesterday and today, I think it's quite good for the beginner experience. But I'm constantly of two minds about reporting some feature requests. The project's primary goal seems to be existing as a stepping stone to even see what Lisp is really all about before "graduating" to something like emacs, it feels like a secondary goal (though it is mentioned as a goal) to be usable by professionals as well, but there's inherent tension there. That's also been a weakness with the other editors: anyone already comfortable with Lisp development, professional or not, in emacs or not, isn't very likely to give the time of day to some new thing that's almost certainly not going to be as good as what they're used to. And so the new thing doesn't get the attention and feedback from experienced developers and the gap never closes.

▲ skydhash an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> today's new devs have been spoiled by modern UIs (and that's a good thing) and shouldn't have to cope with Emacs and its stubborn retroness.

Two words: Programmable editor.

One of the best advantages of Lisp is the ability to metaprogram. After solving a problem, you find that your code can fit other cases and then you you write a program that will produce the relevant code for those cases. In most other PL you would have to write the slightly different code again or use a template language.

Once you get accustomed to that, you will start to decompose other parts of your workflow in smaller building blocks and realize that only a few parts differ, but they all fits the same workflow. And one of the main realization 99% of them are text, act on text, and produce text. So what you really need is a framework around text, not a bespoke assemblage of tools.

With Unix, you have the text processing tools and vi (some would say ed). All centered around the terminal, the shell and files. Emacs is another version with a lisp vm, a collection of functions and the buffer as the interface. A third version is acme with buffers and mouse clicks as commands. The idea here is to be able to build small tools that can take care of the misc. things we need to do while writing programs. From navigation to analyzing, from formatting to building, and the myriads things in between.

Modern UIs are good for beginner and light usage. Or if you're lucky, they have your specific workflow neatly packaged in some plugins. But when you get tired of having another helpful "update" messing your muscle memory, or want to establish an efficient workflow with some external program (A CL lisp runtime in your case), that's when the weakness appears.

▲ vfclists 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If Lisp developers want a better editor and IDE they can support Lem.

VS Code doesn't provide the liveness and extensibility Emacs and Lisp developers enjoy in their environments.

▲ bitwize an hour ago | parent [-]

Lem is still too Emacs-like.

I'm talking about beginners, not seasoned Lisp hands, most of whom—until the great boomer dieoff occurs at least—are already comfortable in Emacs. If you're still just finding your feet in Lisp, you're not aware enough of its tremendous power to miss it from your IDE. You're just wondering why you have to Escape Meta Alt Control Shift to get anything done instead of, you know, just using the menu and mouse commands and keyboard shortcuts that literally everyone else uses.

	▲	skydhash an hour ago \| parent [-]
		You can always start the REPL on its own and start playing that way. Or use something like: `sbcl --load <filename>` Sly/Slime is not essential to play around with Lisp. Emacs just has the right architecture for an REPL workflow. You can do REPL development with Sql and various other programs in Emacs.