| ▲ | _alternator_ 8 hours ago |
| Transient 'objects' after nuclear tests are quite possibly high energy radiation from the tests themselves. Remember these are on film, and the film is likely removed from its protective housing for some time before, during, and after imaging. (And in many cases protective housing wouldn't help anyway.) I get the sense that this topic is popular because "aliens y'all". It's much more likely to be radiation. It's possible that atomic tests kick luminous particles into the upper atmosphere. But it's not aliens. |
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| ▲ | cshimmin 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| When I was a research physicist I spent a lot of time looking at the effects of ionizing radiation in pictures, although mostly in the context of digital images. The mechanisms are a bit different for photo emulsions, but to me the reason I'd discount radiation is because they're specifically filtering for features that exhibit the expected point spread function (which is a geometric property of the telescope's optical assembly itself). I guess you could test by exposing emulsion plates to ionizing radiation and seeing how often you get PSF-like images by chance. Also, their search is for +/- 1 day of nuclear testing, which seems weird. Certainly radiation from fallout wouldn't make sense on the day before testing. It would have been useful to see +1 day and -1 day separately. Or 0-2 days. The way it's chosen makes me suspect they couldn't find a signal in those windows, and therefore it's probably just statistical noise that they've massaged out of the data. But to me the biggest flag is that these images are from 50 minute exposures. The objects don't appear as streaks, so they are either very, very short flashes (much shorter than 50 min), or they are very far away. The authors interpret this to mean the objects should be in geosynchronous orbit, which doesn't make sense; objects in geosync would still appear to move relative to the star background over the course of 50 min. Yet this is the entire basis for their "shadow deficit" window calculation. You could constrain the duration vs distance by looking at the effect it would have on smearing the PSF, which would be interesting. Overall it seems pretty unscientific. If you go looking through enough statistically noisy data for signals in enough places, you'll eventually find it. |
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| ▲ | _alternator_ 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, 50-minute exposures would certainly rule out geosynchronous; I've used image stacking to look at geo and you get visible movement relative to the star background after even a few seconds. Fifty minutes would be almost 15 degrees of movement relative to the background! This isn't even accounting for the fact that you would need to be looking in a narrow region above above the equator to get something geosynchronous to begin with. There are other possiblities that are likely: Upper atmosphere tests resulting in transient luminous phenomena. This would be more likey in certain conditions where the sun could reflect off of specular matter (e.g., bits of metal). You would see this most likely within 1-2 hours of sunset or 1-2 hours of sunrise (source: I've used optical equipment to spot satellites professionally). I'd note that thier pipeline for removing "plate defects" is not based on the PSF but on some vaguely defined "expert review" training. This can, and should, be a quantifiable step. | |
| ▲ | dd8601fn 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The objects don't appear as streaks, so they are either very, very short flashes (much shorter than 50 min), or they are very far away. Couldn’t be aberrations in equipment, like lenses? Or film development? | | |
| ▲ | ted_dunning 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | As stated in the abstract, the anomalies occur more within a window around a nuclear event. | | |
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| ▲ | urig 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | +/- 1 day of nuclear testing because these are old records so dates and times reported might be inaccurate. |
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| ▲ | causal 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "Not aliens" seems obvious but shouldn't be a basis for dismissing this either. I feel like sometimes we are so determined to dismiss aliens that we accept any plausible alternative too quickly, when there might be something else more interesting that is neither obvious nor aliens. |
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| ▲ | WalterBright 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Aliens are not plausible. | | |
| ▲ | kristerj 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you just did the thing, but with his comment | |
| ▲ | causal 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Agreed, and I don't think you understood my comment. | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Perhaps you didn't write what you meant. I read it as we shouldn't think it is obvious that they aren't aliens. | | |
| ▲ | causal 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > there might be something else more interesting that is neither obvious nor aliens. | | |
| ▲ | kristerj 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I tend to think there is a really good chance all the "its aliens" phenomena are natural phenomena that we are hundreds of years away from even having the tools to study. Probably like early humans trying to guess what the sun is made of. |
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| ▲ | shepardrtc 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why not? | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Nobody has ever found the slightest smidgen of evidence of aliens, nor any plausible theory of what aliens would be like. It's about as likely as someone inventing a car that runs on water. | | |
| ▲ | LocalH 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | While it's always good to elevate evidence-based knowledge above "woo" or "belief", it's not healthy to close your mind off completely against anything that isn't currently proven. We might know that we don't know a lot of things, but the most interesting thought experiments happen in the area that concerns the things we don't know that we don't know. | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | When an engineer tells me he built a car that runs on water, he'd better bring some pretty amazing evidence. And no, I'm not going to waste time reading his paper looking for the inevitable flaw, either. I've heard "evidence" of aliens my entire life. Guess how many panned out. Zero. But that never seems to discourage anyone from believing that an artifact on a photo must have the most implausible explanation ever - aliens! Where do you draw the line? Time travel? Teleportation? Astrology? Fortune tellers? Razor blade sharpening? Reincarnation? |
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| ▲ | BobbyJo 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | ... wouldn't this be a slight smidgen of evidence? | | |
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| ▲ | WalterBright 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sorry to bring the bad news. |
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| ▲ | ordinarily 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They're there before the tests though, and potentially more frequent around nuclear testing calendar days. The argument has never been "these only showed up after a nuclear test." |
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| ▲ | _alternator_ 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Two things here: radiation exposure could explain this, since there's a period after exposure and before developing where you can get radiation exposure. Second, and perhaps more importantly, is that there's a detailed criticism of this line of research available, including evidence against the argument that these are more likely ±1 day of nuclear tests. See https://arxiv.org/pdf/2601.21946, and also https://arxiv.org/pdf/2402.00497 for a study of plate defect issues. I think the current paper continuing this line of research should be read cautiously. I don't love discounting ideas out of hand, as these folks clearly have put effort into the analysis. But the rebuttals read as at least as high quality analysis, and "it's aliens" requires a lot of evidence for me to take it seriously. |
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| ▲ | doctorpangloss 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| no, i think it's worse than that, and it's right in the study: "the nuclear correlation is just a function of which days Palomar was observing on... even that is not statistically significant. It's just noise." - https://www.metabunk.org/threads/transients-in-the-palomar-o... another POV is the paper is sloppy in the parts that matter Machine Learning goes both ways. A chatbot is not predisposed to ruin aliens enthusiast's days. It just does what it is told to do, like repro a paper, and it can tell you the problems in some limited, but globally important, objective way, and it did, and the paper has problems, and they're basic. |
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| ▲ | recursivecaveat an hour ago | parent [-] | | Chatbots are certainly not objective. There are countless articles are this that and the other bias with them. The whole sycophancy blowup or their basic inability to choose a fair random number without assistance should clearly demonstrate that they have many implicit biases. The distribution of answers chatbots give to questions is being constantly and deliberately tweaked by their developers. |
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