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RugnirViking 3 hours ago

Im aware of all of those things. I assume many more terrible things besides those happen internally. I think people directly involved with such decisions, or implementing such decisions, are responsible, and I condemn them. Obviously. I would even suggest that those with internal knowledge of such things before they happened are morally obligated to whistleblow them.

I think expecting everyone else (which is, I believe, almost everyone working at facebook) not involved with any of these things to take a large personal sacrifice or be condemned is unlikely to result in many resignations. You're asking people to be hurt for the actions of others.

The best argument you have here is the moment someone starts working at facebook, after these things happen. I don't know that they should be condemned, but I can understand looking at them with some suspicion. Still, its hard to say its the worst thing in the world to do, accept employment under a shitty person. Who hasn't complained about their boss?

When you lump in people who have done nothing wrong (and in fact you have no information about what they are or are not doing to stop things like this) for failing to stop the actions of others together with those committing acts of evil, you are making a totalizing statement. There is nothing they can do to redeem themselves. They are morally equivalent to the people doing the terrible things. Which is absurd.

To claim that my analogies to countries are "non-working" is ridiculous. This is the exact same argument as "are citizens of israel complicit in the actions of their government" or "are citizens of the usa" or "are citizens of palestine" or "are citizens of iran". If anything, I feel citizens of a country have far more potential to change the course of what those countries do than an employee at a company like facebook. (they still have almost no power at all, so the point is essentially moot. But at least democracies are outwardly meant to follow the will of their citizens, and coordination is encouraged) What power workers may have, only works when they coordinate action (which I think should be encouraged. These people are your friend).

We need more rational, sober judgement in the world, not mob justice.

troupo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> I think expecting everyone else (which is, I believe, almost everyone working at facebook) not involved with any of these things to take a large personal sacrifice or be condemned is unlikely to result in many resignations.

Ah yes. All those horrible things happened overnight, right? So that's why we don't expect people to take a large personal sacrifice of ... knowing about this shit for years, and still working for the company. Or knowing about all this shit, and still choosing to work for this company.

> When you lump in people who have done nothing wrong (and in fact you have no information about what they are or are not doing to stop things like this) for failing to stop the actions

Never once did I ask them to stop the actions of others. However, they chose to work for a company which is complicit in all of this.

> This is the exact same argument as "are citizens of israel complicit in the actions of their government"

You keep pretending that being born in a country is exactly the same as actively choosing to work, and keep working for a company especially when there are plenty of other options. "But where else will I find a 300k salary" is not a moral choice.

RugnirViking 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think your position may feel good, but it will achieve nothing. It will probably not even convince anyone to resign, let alone actually stop bad things happening. So why be angry at people who did nothing wrong? Save it for those who actually did the stuff. Save it for lawsuits against the company. Save it for regulation. Save it for efforts to organize workers to push back against these things. A single person leaving for moral reasons at this point will be replaced by the next guy. They will not run out of guys. Going by current trajectories, they're actually TRYING to reduce headcount

troupo an hour ago | parent [-]

> So why be angry at people who did nothing wrong

"Oh no, I know everything about this company, so I actively chose to work for it and keep working for it while all this is happening. But I did nothing wrong. I only work here, making sure this company continues to work and exist".

> A single person leaving for moral reasons at this point will be replaced by the next guy.

So, out of thousands that keep working at Facebook, there will be just one person leaving? And you don't see it as a problem?

> They will not run out of guys.

Indeed. And you still don't see it as a problem and keep claiming that "but they did nothing wrong". They actively chose to work for this company. I can't make it more clear than it is.

In an ideal world more and more people leave and Facebook ends up scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find replacements. In this world tens of thousands of "we did nothing wrong" people have no qualms working on all of Facebook's systems and you keep pretending that they "did nothing wrong because it's the same as being born in a country or something".