Interesting you say the Dev isn't a great person, because I had a hunch when I saw the use of the Lena photo on the front page (https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/it-s-time-to-retire-...). It's interesting how small gestures present how someone sees the world.

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miki_oomiri 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Man… you guys are ruthless. The dude provides a free tool to use, and used a cute named, have opinions about code, and used the most common used photo on his webpage, and suddenly he gets insulted on a public forum by strangers. He's not perfect. Nobody is. He has opinions, and might not even know about Lenna.

You people are gross.

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patates 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

As a reply to this comment:

> Interesting you say the Dev isn't a great person, because I had a hunch when I saw the use of the Lena photo on the front page

You say:

> you guys are ruthless (...) You people are gross.

I'm not saying you don't have a point. I didn't know enough to be sensitive on the Lena topic once either, and could have been the target of the above comment. So I think, perhaps, those could have been formulated more constructively.

However, I must say the same for your comment too. Can't we all be friends here? :)

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fc417fc802 4 days ago | parent [-]

> I didn't know enough to be sensitive on the Lena topic once either

It's reactionary nonsense, there's nothing to be sensitive about. The subject of the photograph merely went along with it.

There are legitimate arguments against using it as a technical benchmark in this day and age but that isn't what people get outraged over.

My personal view is that the correct response to strangers trying to score social points by policing other's conduct is to defiantly do the opposite.

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aaplok 3 days ago | parent [-]

I agree that calling someone a bad person for using one of the most common test images is excessive. However, regarding this:

> The subject of the photograph merely went along with it.

The subject of the photograph did ask for it to no longer be used. Here's a quote from her:

> I retired from modeling a long time ago. It’s time I retired from tech, too.

> to defiantly do the opposite.

If the policing comes from third party for virtue signalling, this is fair game. Here, I'd just suggest that respecting her wish is just common courtesy and consider someone who defiantly doesn't as a somewhat rude person.

[0] https://interestingengineering.com/culture/bye-lenna-iconic-...

	▲	fc417fc802 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		Yes, I'm aware of her statement. My view is that she merely went along with what I see as reactionary nonsense as opposed to actually caring about the use of her likeness. We all have a civic duty to actively push back against the spread of polarizing reactionary movements. Even if I believed her request to be genuine I can't bring myself to view reproducing a commercial image of a professional model that's in widespread circulation as being unethical under any circumstances. Neither would I ever agree to stop distributing a well known book if one day many years later the author woke up suddenly wanting to undo its publication. If you find my viewpoint confusing or seemingly unreasonable, for reference I view projects such as Anna's Archive in a positive light. While I strongly disagree with what I perceive to be the intent behind the image being banned by many journals, I nonetheless agree with the outcome. It's an objectively poor test image for demonstrating the technical capabilities of the vast majority of modern applications. We don't benchmark modern video codecs by encoding VHS rips of classic Disney movies and we shouldn't do the equivalent for still images.

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redeeman 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

nothing wrong with using that photo, some people just have to chill out. its like people crying snot over master branches

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hagbard_c 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure, you can 'see' how 'someone sees the world' just by him or her not abiding to the current narrative. You do realise that the 'Lena' image has been the standard image for these purposes for decades and that some people might not consider the (politically charged) crusade to suddenly ban it from all such use as being the most pressing issue?

I think what you wrote here says more about how you see the world than how Goyal sees it.

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moritonal 4 days ago | parent [-]

You're right my comment was off the cuff but I stand by it's logic. I didn't say Kovid was a terrible person, just not great. Having not done research into him specifically I just noted with the parent that certain qualities such as supposed abrasiveness often overlap with qualities I dislike, like using the Lenna image.

My point is that using the Lenna image is a signal, just as you rightly point out so is my comment. I know exactly what the image is and is used for. But I also think it's sad that it's politically charged to say using a Playboy image in a literally objectifying fashion as a test-subject by a women who's requested we don't use it is bad.

It's not a sudden ban, it's been an issue since ~2015. Fun fact I learnt in this, Goyal is totally open to changing it (https://github.com/kovidgoyal/kitty/issues/661), it's simply no-one changed it. I'll see if I can, thanks for the correct call-out.

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prmoustache 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> using a Playboy image

In all honesty, until I read about that I couldn't have imagined the original was a playboy image. What is really used and we see online is a cropped portrait of a playboy image. I am not even sure that playboy image may have been pornographic. Nudity != porn. What is sure is that cropped portrait is not in any way pornographic.

So I kind of have difficulties on drawing opinions about that. Surely the model doesn't have any copyright on that photo, rather the photographer/publisher have and apparently nobody has cared. I would not use it today out of empathy given the model would rather not see her image still being used today and how easy it is to replace it. I feel that consent is above copyright laws.

I have mixed feeling about the argument that the presence of that totally non pornographic portrait would make women feel less welcomed in science. On one hand I would say that if they say so, that could be true. On another hand I would ask if these women really are representative of all women? Does it really matters? Should we avoid posting picture of portraits and stick to animals or still life scenes? And if not why should we avoid only women ones?

	▲	moritonal 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		Personally I consider the crop part of the problem. By cropping (rather than just picking another image) it "cleans" the image, but retains the context. I could crop many images to be valid as test-images, but people who know the context would still see them for what they are. Lenna represents a time when the highest quality magazine at hand in a laboratory was softcore pornography.

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hagbard_c 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Using the 'Lena' image is only a signal for those who want to signal something. For most people it is just the standard graphic to use when presenting image processing software. There has been a movement to ban the image but that movement is most likely not nearly so widespread as some people seem to think it is. It wholly depends on which 'bubble' you are in whether using that image is a deadly sin or just daily routine. I suspect Goyal used it in the latter way, not to send some signal to the Image Inquisition.

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moritonal 4 days ago | parent [-]

I want to point out some of the language you've used. You've brought up "current narrative", "crusade", "sin" and "inquisition", when really you seem to be saying "the image doesn't signal anything and the push to remove it is overblown". I disagree with you (for example IEEE has banned it) but I do respect you believe the actual movement that disagrees with is small but influential.

Instead however I would ask you look at the words you used, where they came from, who said them to you, and why you brought them up here. They are strangely charged words for a debate over a picture.

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redeeman 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> for example IEEE has banned it

yeah, so that tells us a lot about the yes-men at IEEE. I wonder what other current-thing they will follow when it suddenly becomes politically convenient.

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blipvert 4 days ago | parent [-]

Well, it’s good to know that it’s not just women that you think are unable to make their own decisions.

	▲	redeeman 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		your comment says more about you than it does me. how exactly is this a gendered thing at all? people can make whatever decisions they want, INCLUDING lena when she chose to make this photo public to the entire world, for people to consume. I respect that, and I understand that once you release such, theres no takes-backsies

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joquarky 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

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redsocksfan45 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]