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noobermin 7 hours ago

It honestly is a bit dissapointing that most of the internet's "infrastructure" is tied up in large corporations that just get money for free by being the only provider and face little to no backlash (because of their monopoly) when they neglect things like basic customer service.

subroutine 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Gmail is free. How much customer support resources should someone reasonably expect a company to dedicate towards their free-of-charge services?

pjc50 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Increasingly of the opinion that "free service with no support that's structurally essential for an economy" is some kind of trap. Possibly just the most comfortable kind of trap, a local optimum from which it's difficult to escape.

This is starting to become important as countries (very unwisely!) start tying things like national ID and banking to smartphones.

nomel 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't know if it's that simple. As a litmus test, try to set up your own mail server. See how many milliseconds it takes for it to be blacklisted by gmail. And then observe the response time for their support, when you try to clear up the confusion that google has about your intentions.

Arnt 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I run my own mail server, not blacklisted. Now I'm a bit of a special case, I know mail well.

But when a moderately technical colleague wanted to do the same, I told her to use Mox, she set it up and Gmail doesn't block her either.

So... would you please elaborate?

ssl-3 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've built mail servers before Gmail existed that lasted long enough to get blacklisted by Gmail.

Fixing it was always pretty simple -- or at least, non-mysterious. They'd bounce some things, I'd look at the headers of the bounced messages, and therein were links to instructions there that showed how to resolve whatever issue it was this year.

Just follow the steps, implement the new thing, and stuff started flowing again in rather short order. Not so bad.

IIRC, the only time it ever cost us any money was when the RBLs started keeping track of dynamic IP pools and we needed to finally shift over to something actually-static.

6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
oivey 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s free, but it’s not like they’re running Gmail as a charity, either. It has revenue and contributes to their other businesses.

bigfatkitten 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Google’s support for paying customers isn’t much better unless you’re spending well into the millions per year.

AWS, on the other hand has proven willing to move mountains for me as a $15/mo customer.

robot-wrangler 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> How much customer support resources should someone reasonably expect

Zero. OTOH, since I'm sure they are training on emails and archiving/profiling everything forever even if we delete messages.. those constant threats to become a paying customer before hitting some arbitrary small quota are still villainous

BLKNSLVR 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If it didn't provide value it wouldn't exist.

Maybe it's only legacy, but gmail brings customers to Google and their related services. Escalation then brings them on as paying Customers. As loss leader may make a loss if looked at in a bubble, but if looked at as part of the "Customer Lifecycle" then other areas of profit would likely be much smaller without the free gateway.

It takes me active resistance to avoid Google's paid services, and I'm staunchly independent in relatively rare air. The minor capitulation required to turn into a paying Customer would capture a good percentage of their erstwhile-free gmail users (I would think. Yes, conjecture, interested in explanations of alternative theories).

sambuccid 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We might not be paying money, but we don't know what happens to our private data. Maybe it's not used at all, maybe used just internally, maybe could be even sold. Data of millions of users is very very valuable, even just thinking about how much targeted adverts could be placed with it.

fragmede 5 hours ago | parent [-]

It isn't sold directly. There are robust internal controls so random employees can't just snoop on eg ex girlfriends' email or be fired.

Source: Used to work there.

gilrain an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Gmail is profitable. How much harm should profitable services be allowed to perpetuate in the world to enable their profit?

grey-area 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Gmail shows ads to make money so it is not loss making. Google Workspace charges money per user (and still offers abysmal support).

unmole 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> get money for free

How do they get money for free? What is stopping everyone else from doing the same?

noobermin 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A monopoly. It's hard for "everyone else" to develop a monopoly today, to suggest otherwise is a ridiculous assertion.

unmole 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Gmail is not a monopoly. When it comes to actual paying customers, it is not even the market leader

> ridiculous assertion.

What is ridiculous is the idea that running an email service a massive scale like Gmail is somehow free.

JoshTriplett 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Gmail is not a monopoly.

https://pdx.social/@evergreensewing/116388477430172491

> For the first time since we started the company back in January/February, we have a customer who does NOT use Gmail for their email address.

> In case you wanted to see what a monopoly looks like.

diath 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is anecdotal but here's the breakdown of top 10 e-mail providers from my database, does not look like a monopoly:

    MariaDB > SELECT SUBSTRING_INDEX(email, '@', -1) AS domain, COUNT(*) AS cnt FROM accounts GROUP BY domain HAVING domain != '' ORDER BY cnt DESC LIMIT 10;
    +-------------+-------+
    | domain      | cnt   |
    +-------------+-------+
    | hotmail.com | 38015 |
    | gmail.com   | 16280 |
    | yahoo.com   |  4080 |
    | o2.pl       |  2321 |
    | wp.pl       |  2206 |
    | live.com    |  1415 |
    | outlook.com |   814 |
    | interia.pl  |   609 |
    | hotmail.es  |   590 |
    | live.se     |   521 |
    +-------------+-------+
    10 rows in set (0.044 sec)
unmole 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Most people use Gmail because they want to, not because they have to. It's a free, superior product. Pretending voluntary preference is a monopoly is nonsense, but it is a very Mastodon-brained take.

noobermin 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a figure of speech. I am not saying it is literally free. I'm being facitious. What I mean is they get money overwhelmingly because of their position in advertising and through android that essentially allows them to never worry about losing users. Who is going to going to attempt to delete their google account over poor customer service? You literally cannot access half of the internet today without a Google account.

ranger_danger 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You literally cannot access half of the internet today without a Google account.

This must be the half I have never heard of then. What non-google websites specifically require a google account?

unmole 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

themafia 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Try running your own SMTP server for a while. Gmail holds what appears to be monopoly power and uses it quite readily. Even ISPs with "free" customer email addresses aren't nearly as onerous as google is.

eesmith 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There is a common misapprehension that the term "monopoly" can only be used when there a single supplier.

Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly : "In law, a monopoly is a business entity that has significant market power, that is, the power to charge overly high prices, which is associated with unfair price raises."

Or from Milton Freedman, "Monopoly exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it". https://archive.org/details/capitalismfreedo0000frie/page/12...

In the post-Borkian interpretation of monopoly, adored by the rich and powerful because it enables market concentration which would otherwise be forbidden, consumer price is the main measure of control, hence free services can never be a monopoly.

Scholars have long pointed out Bork's view results from a flawed analysis of the intent of the Sherman Antitrust act. For example, Sherman wrote "If we would not submit to an emperor, we should not submit to an autocrat of trade, with power to prevent competition and to fix the price of any commodity.” (Emphasis mine. Widely quoted, original transcript at p2457 of https://www.congress.gov/bound-congressional-record/1890/03/... ). Freedman makes a similar point (see above) that a negative effect of a monopoly is to reduce access to alternatives.

One well-known rejection of the Borkian view is in Lina Khan "Amazon's Antitrust Paradox" paper. https://yalelawjournal.org/pdf/e.710.Khan.805_zuvfyyeh.pdf

In it she quotes Robert Pitofsky in "The Political Content of Antitrust":

"A third and overriding political concern is that if the free-market sector of the economy is allowed to develop under antitrust rules that are blind to all but economic concerns, the likely result will be an economy so dominated by a few corporate giants that it will be impossible for the state not to play a more intrusive role in economic affairs"

(I can't find a copy of that source online, but you can see the quote at https://archive.org/details/traderegulationc0005pito/mode/2u... where Pitofsky rejects viewing antitrust law through an exclusively economic lens.)

Even if you support the Borkian interpretation, you should still worry about the temptation for the US government to "play a more intrusive role" with GMail accounts. I strongly doubt Google will follow Lavabit's lead and shut down email should the feds come by with a gag order to turn over the company's private keys.

In the name of national security, of course.

protocolture 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They aren't a monopoly, and especially not a monopoly on emails.

How did we get to the point where there can be 12 services, but the one with lots of customers is a "Monopoly". Its a complete destruction of the word. They aren't killing their competitors, nor making it illegal to compete. Yeah its harder in the current era to run your own mail server, for a variety of reasons involving spam. But can we just cut the shit on calling literally every company with more than 100 employees a Monopoly?

mindslight 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Postel's law means you can just mentally replace "monopoly" with "anticompetitive restraint of trade" and go on to address the substantive point.

protocolture 6 hours ago | parent [-]

But theres not even that going on.

Most of the problems people have spinning up their own email servers, like getting blacklisted by the big boys, are less bad societally than actually accepting and routing the quantity of spam they are blacklisting. Does it benefit them? Kind of. But its not anticompetitive in any real sense. These restrictions are obvious and basic. If you really wanted to, you could spend a significant, but in the grand scheme of things small, amount of money to break into the same game.

I mean theres a non zero chance that if Google, Microsoft and Amazon stopped being so damn picky, the government would turn around and regulate that they do exactly what they are doing now, to resist the plague of spam that would result.

Its like getting mad at Visa and Mastercard for insisting on the PCI DSS for people they transact with. If it wasn't mandated by Visa and Mastercard, it would become government regulation (and is already referenced by regulators in some jurisdictions)

"Ooooh no Visa is being anticompetitive making me secure my environment and prove that security to a trusted third party what a terrible monopoly they have".

xeyownt 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You are missing the point.

The point is that they don't provide the level of services required by their position, which is dominant.

When you have a legitimate problem with Google, they don't reply to you. The news here is again an example of that. The only thing you can do is abide by their rules, which often requires you to subscribe to their services or be at their mercy.

6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
bmandale 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>How do they get money for free?

market power

>What is stopping everyone else from doing the same?

see above

unmole 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Nice circular reasoning you got there. How do they have market power? Did they get it for free?

darkwater 6 hours ago | parent [-]

No, they got it by Gmail being a loss leader paid by Google AdSense in the search engine. Now they have AdSense in Gmail directly, so I guess it pays for itself.

unmole 6 hours ago | parent [-]

So, Google built a superior product that is profitable and we are supposed to be mad about this?

ranger_danger 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Advertising and eyeballs, I'd assume